Lets talk about sound baby
-
muthafunka
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:28 pm
- Location: Tokyo
Hey Purple, as a hint, if you want the best possible sound, lose the Numark, they're not exactly top-end to start with (if you want NICE sound get Allen&Heath etc), also, you're much better ditching the dj mixer altogether and using a hi-fi amp and getting some decent cables and even a decent cartridge if you can stretch to it...you think YOU'RE a 'sound freak' - I'm the man with the $200 power cables!!!
Hi everybody,
Thanks alot for all the replies. I have my son with me today so I don't have enough time at the moment (he insists on me looking at him jumping on the bed..
), But as soon as he falls asleep I will look deeper into all of your suggestions and see if I may have had some setting wrong or something, I'll check the sound again and get back to you later on with my results.
Thanks,
Purple
Thanks alot for all the replies. I have my son with me today so I don't have enough time at the moment (he insists on me looking at him jumping on the bed..
), But as soon as he falls asleep I will look deeper into all of your suggestions and see if I may have had some setting wrong or something, I'll check the sound again and get back to you later on with my results.Thanks,
Purple
-
noisetonepause
- Posts: 4938
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
- Location: Sticks and stones
I really don't want to stick my neck out too much, as I don't have the theoretical backing to go into this debate, but know this: Robert was quoting the THEORY, not the facts, regarding digital systems. Some would argue that he was talking bollocks. Take a look at the links I posted in the other thread or search for things like 'digital summing' in the Sound On Sound forums (soundonsound.com) for more info.robbmasters wrote:Robert Henke's post at http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#43955 seems to suggest that what you are experiencing is impossible - i.e. an audio engine (be it Live's, SoundForge's, Acid's, etc.) does NOT affect the sound, as it's simply replaying samples (unless you're timestretching, applying effects or something - which you're not).
-Paws
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.
-
Robert Henke
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am
- Location: Berlin
Re: Lets talk about sound baby
purple wrote:
I was pretty shocked and terribly dissapointed when I played the same file via Live (no pitchshifting or any other process). It seems that a lot of the tiny details I've managed to achieve spending a lot of money for the best equipment I could get, was just lost in Live as compared to the way the same soundfile sounded in Sound Forge and Acid. It was just less open, less warm and had much less shine.
Hi purple,
i do not feel like repeating what i have been writing before,
but since in a digital world everything can be tracked down to a large number of 01011011 i will do this test tomorrow:
I will create a stereo file filled with random numbers at 44.1 kHz.
iIwill play that file back in Live at 44.1 khz without touching the gain of the track and without touching the gain of the master.
I will record the output digitally into another computer.
then i will repeat the procedure with Logic.
afterwards i will compare the two recordings byte by byte.
If your statement is true, then there will be a difference.
I expect a difference of exactly zero. But i promise to tell you the results even if it is not zero.
Robert
I was pretty shocked and terribly dissapointed when I played the same file via Live (no pitchshifting or any other process). It seems that a lot of the tiny details I've managed to achieve spending a lot of money for the best equipment I could get, was just lost in Live as compared to the way the same soundfile sounded in Sound Forge and Acid. It was just less open, less warm and had much less shine.
Hi purple,
i do not feel like repeating what i have been writing before,
but since in a digital world everything can be tracked down to a large number of 01011011 i will do this test tomorrow:
I will create a stereo file filled with random numbers at 44.1 kHz.
iIwill play that file back in Live at 44.1 khz without touching the gain of the track and without touching the gain of the master.
I will record the output digitally into another computer.
then i will repeat the procedure with Logic.
afterwards i will compare the two recordings byte by byte.
If your statement is true, then there will be a difference.
I expect a difference of exactly zero. But i promise to tell you the results even if it is not zero.
Robert
You know guys, this sound issue keeps coming up again and again. I remember with Live 2.X one of the members from dubtribe sound system was on the forum and said exactly the same thing. His CD's were mastered with pristine sound quality, but then he put them into Live and they turned to poop.
I do not know the science of sound. I use 44.1k 16 bit because in my opinion its going to get that way when I burn it on to CD, and I don't have expensive dither and mastering equipement. As a vinyl DJ I do believe that vinyl sounds different, and I like it better. Same reason I think Real analog synths sounds better than virtual analog synths, given identicle specs. And I have noticed that DP4 sounds bigger then Live, but Live's sound thumps better in the club. I burned some tracks to CD that I thought were mediocre and they sounded awesome. My point being that there are many factors in getting "that sound", and the audio engine is only one of them, and probably a less significant one then what instruments are being used, what plugs, EQ or effects are being used, and what sound system everything is being heard on. It's like the shure vs ortofon, rane, vs vestax vs allen & heath debate in dj ing. There's just a lot of factors.
Two days ago I listened to some songs that a friend made in Reason and Protools. Totally different from mine - his has a huge stereo image, while I like to play in the space between tonal frequencies - his sound is wide while my sound is deep. I was amazed at the way the synths sounded. He told me he layers tons of sounds in Reason and then pans them to different places in the stereo image. I usually use single tones coming from a single source - like a deep kick with a sizzling high hat, or a sub bass line with an clear bells or ripping analog filter sweeps. I would say I'm influenced more by the dub aesthetic and him, industrial or IDM. His kicks and snares were made up of loads of different samples. My drums are heavily compressed. But, as we talked about his sound, there was a lack in the bottom register even though he layered sound many sounds and used the EQ, while mine sounded at times narrow. While it had this large in you face kind of sound, there still was lacking depth. While mine were deep they weren't in your face. I use Live with Reason, he used Reason with ProTools. So we exchanged some wav's and went to work. Both our files sounded perhaps slightly different in each others DAWS, but within a few minutes, I made his sounds a bit deeper, and he made my sound wider.
The poinst of being of this extremely long post is that I think that it's largely a matter of technique and style. He showed me how to make my stereo image wider, and I showed him how to make his sound a bit deeper. Perhaps the choice of DAW had something to do with this. Perhaps because Live is designed like an instrument and ProTools and multitracker, that has an influence on how one shapes the sound, or how the sound comes out of it.
I do not know the science of sound. I use 44.1k 16 bit because in my opinion its going to get that way when I burn it on to CD, and I don't have expensive dither and mastering equipement. As a vinyl DJ I do believe that vinyl sounds different, and I like it better. Same reason I think Real analog synths sounds better than virtual analog synths, given identicle specs. And I have noticed that DP4 sounds bigger then Live, but Live's sound thumps better in the club. I burned some tracks to CD that I thought were mediocre and they sounded awesome. My point being that there are many factors in getting "that sound", and the audio engine is only one of them, and probably a less significant one then what instruments are being used, what plugs, EQ or effects are being used, and what sound system everything is being heard on. It's like the shure vs ortofon, rane, vs vestax vs allen & heath debate in dj ing. There's just a lot of factors.
Two days ago I listened to some songs that a friend made in Reason and Protools. Totally different from mine - his has a huge stereo image, while I like to play in the space between tonal frequencies - his sound is wide while my sound is deep. I was amazed at the way the synths sounded. He told me he layers tons of sounds in Reason and then pans them to different places in the stereo image. I usually use single tones coming from a single source - like a deep kick with a sizzling high hat, or a sub bass line with an clear bells or ripping analog filter sweeps. I would say I'm influenced more by the dub aesthetic and him, industrial or IDM. His kicks and snares were made up of loads of different samples. My drums are heavily compressed. But, as we talked about his sound, there was a lack in the bottom register even though he layered sound many sounds and used the EQ, while mine sounded at times narrow. While it had this large in you face kind of sound, there still was lacking depth. While mine were deep they weren't in your face. I use Live with Reason, he used Reason with ProTools. So we exchanged some wav's and went to work. Both our files sounded perhaps slightly different in each others DAWS, but within a few minutes, I made his sounds a bit deeper, and he made my sound wider.
The poinst of being of this extremely long post is that I think that it's largely a matter of technique and style. He showed me how to make my stereo image wider, and I showed him how to make his sound a bit deeper. Perhaps the choice of DAW had something to do with this. Perhaps because Live is designed like an instrument and ProTools and multitracker, that has an influence on how one shapes the sound, or how the sound comes out of it.
exactly. MOST clubs are actually mono pieces of crap.Gilboe wrote:But for live sets, man... come on...
First off, I've been to a LOT of clubs, and I'd say the first port of call for sound compromise is the majority of PA systems in the club. Even the extremely nice ones are far from "pristine" Have you tried your A/B tests on a variety of cluba PA systems, not just at home on (I am assuming) a pristine setup?
-
skiptracer
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:13 pm
- Location: Montreal
- Contact:
-
cmusicmaker
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:25 pm
- Location: Earth
- Contact:
Interesting comparison. Technique has a lot do with it.steve-o wrote: The poinst of being of this extremely long post is that I think that it's largely a matter of technique and style. He showed me how to make my stereo image wider, and I showed him how to make his sound a bit deeper. Perhaps the choice of DAW had something to do with this. Perhaps because Live is designed like an instrument and ProTools and multitracker, that has an influence on how one shapes the sound, or how the sound comes out of it.
-
gibbon sound flipper
Wow,
OK, I tried again but first let me try to comment on some of the points that were made in the previous posts and make some order in this mess of ideas and opinions.
I know this issue has been brought up before and I know people tend to get into heated debates about it. There must be some absolute answers to at least some of these questions and I wish we could find them once and for all. If we put ego aside and try to work on it as scientifically as possible, maybe we can.
First let me say: I have absolutly no agenda here, and if I am wrong I would not only be happy to say it, I would be delighted! Because it will mean I don't have to worry about using Live the way I intended to, and I will also learn something in the process.
Even though I have studies Music Technology in London for a year and a half, I in no way consider myself an expert or even a knowlagble person in digital sound theory. What I do know is that there are many way to play with numbers in theory, but at the end of the day what really does matter is your ears and what they tell you.
This is what I do have: my ears. I've been playing and composing music for 20 years now, and a DJ for the last 12 years. I was always conerned with the timbre of the sound (maybe because my ears are very sensitive to it), and it has always been a big part of my enjoyment and appreciation of music, whether it's classical, jazz, techno, house or soul music.
The way I see it there are a couple of questions related to this issue:
1. Is the sound of the same soundfile (same settings, gain, etc.) in different audio applications identical or not?
2. If not, is the sound of Live inferior to Sound Forge or Acid as an example.
3. If there are changes, how big are they?
4. Will they make any difference in a large PA?
Regarding the first question - Is the sound in different audio applications identical or not, this is my own humble experience:
I've listened again to the file I've checked before (this time making sure gains and other settings are indeed identical) and came to the same conclusion, that the sound is *NOT* identical.
The details of what I did:
1. I recorded a song from vinyl called: 'Found Love' by Blaze. This is a very mellow Soulful House music at 115 bpm. It has lots of percussions and guitars and a male vocal. The vinyl has a very warm, sweet and airy sound.
2. I used my 1200 Technics turtables with a Shure M44 cartridge, going through my Newmark DJ mixer and into the analog input of the RME RPM at the highest gain I could get before clipping, it was recorded using Sound Forge in 24bit 96kHz.
3. Playing back the file from Sound Forge, going through my RME and back into my Newmark mixer the song sounded really good, very close to the original vinyl in an A/B test (a bit more punch and sweetness in the vinyl).
4. Playing back the same file from Live (using the ASIO driver at 96kHz), via exactly the same path, it didn't sound identical.
So this is my own personal conclusion for the first question.
However, I might very well be wrong. If I did miss something in the setting for example. I am no expert in those programs as I have just started trying to use them.
I made sure everything that was written in the posts above is indeed identical:
I checked the levels of the output, they seem identical in both programs: Same leds on my analog mixer, same numbers in the RPM digital mixer.
I used the ASIO engine in 96kHz in Live. I made sure there was no warp or anything else in the audio path.
I couldn't find the option for default sound quality 'High'/'Standard' as David pointed out, maybe there is none in Live 3? (or maybe that's the reason for the difference? however I haven't changed any of the setting in Live, as I never worked on it before)
Also, if I'm trying to be as scientific as possible with my humble toold of examination, I can't rule out a physcological effect, since I did know which program is playing what in this last test I did just now. I have a friend coming over so I will try to test again with closed eyes and a few times to rule out this possiblity.
Now, regarding the second question - is the sound in Live inferior to Sound Forge:
To my ears the sound in Sound Forge was sweeter, more open, had more shine in the highs. Live sounded less bright and less warm.
You could say this is a matter of taste. But I believe anyone would prefer a more bright and open sound, no?
Now, to the third question: If there are changes, how big are they?
This is relative. Big for me might not be the same for somebody else.
It took me some time to learn how to listen properly to tell the differences between bit rates, sample rates and different programs. The best way for was to do an A/B test with the same song playing, one a few bits ahead of the other, so I can listen to the same passage again in the A/B test. Also I concentrated on spedific *short* passages and played them again and again. Sounds like a guitar chord, a bass riff, and especially vocals at certain points were best for this.
Now, when I did my first tests a few days ago, after really getting down to it, with closed eye, completely concentrated and a friend playing the files for me without me knowingm, after hearing the difference between 44.1kHz and 96kHz etc. after my ears got so sensitive, the difference between Live and Sound Forge/Acid sounded really big.
When you first listen and you're not that concentrated the difference might not sound that huge, but for me (like in the test I did just now) it is defintaly still there.
Now for the last question: Will they make any difference in a large PA?
Or does it really make a difference, or is it too minor to spend so much time and energy about it.
Well, for me (at home) it is very very important. And even if I have to concentrate to tell the difference in an A/B test it doesn't mean my body and ears don't feel it subconciously in the long run even when I am not concentrating on A/Bing.
Regarding the large PA, my answer is the same. I have had this debate with other DJs and producers many many times. Gilboa said: "the VAST majority of people who are listening to you spin can't even begin to tell the difference you are talking about". Well, I agree! They can't tell the difference but they *can* feel it.
Not many people agree with me on this, but this is what I've learned from my 12 years experience as a DJ: These tiny differences do make a *huge* difference on any human being in a subconcious level, even in a club with a large PA. Well, actually, it's not that subconciouse, they feel it in their bodies and their ears, they just can *tell* what it is, so they'll end up saying that the music sounded beautiful or that the DJ was great or whatever, and the opposite when the sound source is of less quality.
I cannot say this about really big clubs, because I haven't played them enough, but I do play reguraly at an intimate warm and small club, for about 300 people, and the sound system there is pretty good. The difference when you play vinyl to when you play CD or when people play audio from computers (and they do) is vast (again, 'vast' for me). I can always tell the difference in a second. The warmth of the vinyl encompasses you in the club, you swim in it's pool of sound, it feels more alive, more in your face, move moving and punchy.
I want to loose as little of these qualities as I possible can.
MHO
Purple
OK, I tried again but first let me try to comment on some of the points that were made in the previous posts and make some order in this mess of ideas and opinions.
I know this issue has been brought up before and I know people tend to get into heated debates about it. There must be some absolute answers to at least some of these questions and I wish we could find them once and for all. If we put ego aside and try to work on it as scientifically as possible, maybe we can.
First let me say: I have absolutly no agenda here, and if I am wrong I would not only be happy to say it, I would be delighted! Because it will mean I don't have to worry about using Live the way I intended to, and I will also learn something in the process.
Even though I have studies Music Technology in London for a year and a half, I in no way consider myself an expert or even a knowlagble person in digital sound theory. What I do know is that there are many way to play with numbers in theory, but at the end of the day what really does matter is your ears and what they tell you.
This is what I do have: my ears. I've been playing and composing music for 20 years now, and a DJ for the last 12 years. I was always conerned with the timbre of the sound (maybe because my ears are very sensitive to it), and it has always been a big part of my enjoyment and appreciation of music, whether it's classical, jazz, techno, house or soul music.
The way I see it there are a couple of questions related to this issue:
1. Is the sound of the same soundfile (same settings, gain, etc.) in different audio applications identical or not?
2. If not, is the sound of Live inferior to Sound Forge or Acid as an example.
3. If there are changes, how big are they?
4. Will they make any difference in a large PA?
Regarding the first question - Is the sound in different audio applications identical or not, this is my own humble experience:
I've listened again to the file I've checked before (this time making sure gains and other settings are indeed identical) and came to the same conclusion, that the sound is *NOT* identical.
The details of what I did:
1. I recorded a song from vinyl called: 'Found Love' by Blaze. This is a very mellow Soulful House music at 115 bpm. It has lots of percussions and guitars and a male vocal. The vinyl has a very warm, sweet and airy sound.
2. I used my 1200 Technics turtables with a Shure M44 cartridge, going through my Newmark DJ mixer and into the analog input of the RME RPM at the highest gain I could get before clipping, it was recorded using Sound Forge in 24bit 96kHz.
3. Playing back the file from Sound Forge, going through my RME and back into my Newmark mixer the song sounded really good, very close to the original vinyl in an A/B test (a bit more punch and sweetness in the vinyl).
4. Playing back the same file from Live (using the ASIO driver at 96kHz), via exactly the same path, it didn't sound identical.
So this is my own personal conclusion for the first question.
However, I might very well be wrong. If I did miss something in the setting for example. I am no expert in those programs as I have just started trying to use them.
I made sure everything that was written in the posts above is indeed identical:
I checked the levels of the output, they seem identical in both programs: Same leds on my analog mixer, same numbers in the RPM digital mixer.
I used the ASIO engine in 96kHz in Live. I made sure there was no warp or anything else in the audio path.
I couldn't find the option for default sound quality 'High'/'Standard' as David pointed out, maybe there is none in Live 3? (or maybe that's the reason for the difference? however I haven't changed any of the setting in Live, as I never worked on it before)
Also, if I'm trying to be as scientific as possible with my humble toold of examination, I can't rule out a physcological effect, since I did know which program is playing what in this last test I did just now. I have a friend coming over so I will try to test again with closed eyes and a few times to rule out this possiblity.
Now, regarding the second question - is the sound in Live inferior to Sound Forge:
To my ears the sound in Sound Forge was sweeter, more open, had more shine in the highs. Live sounded less bright and less warm.
You could say this is a matter of taste. But I believe anyone would prefer a more bright and open sound, no?
Now, to the third question: If there are changes, how big are they?
This is relative. Big for me might not be the same for somebody else.
It took me some time to learn how to listen properly to tell the differences between bit rates, sample rates and different programs. The best way for was to do an A/B test with the same song playing, one a few bits ahead of the other, so I can listen to the same passage again in the A/B test. Also I concentrated on spedific *short* passages and played them again and again. Sounds like a guitar chord, a bass riff, and especially vocals at certain points were best for this.
Now, when I did my first tests a few days ago, after really getting down to it, with closed eye, completely concentrated and a friend playing the files for me without me knowingm, after hearing the difference between 44.1kHz and 96kHz etc. after my ears got so sensitive, the difference between Live and Sound Forge/Acid sounded really big.
When you first listen and you're not that concentrated the difference might not sound that huge, but for me (like in the test I did just now) it is defintaly still there.
Now for the last question: Will they make any difference in a large PA?
Or does it really make a difference, or is it too minor to spend so much time and energy about it.
Well, for me (at home) it is very very important. And even if I have to concentrate to tell the difference in an A/B test it doesn't mean my body and ears don't feel it subconciously in the long run even when I am not concentrating on A/Bing.
Regarding the large PA, my answer is the same. I have had this debate with other DJs and producers many many times. Gilboa said: "the VAST majority of people who are listening to you spin can't even begin to tell the difference you are talking about". Well, I agree! They can't tell the difference but they *can* feel it.
Not many people agree with me on this, but this is what I've learned from my 12 years experience as a DJ: These tiny differences do make a *huge* difference on any human being in a subconcious level, even in a club with a large PA. Well, actually, it's not that subconciouse, they feel it in their bodies and their ears, they just can *tell* what it is, so they'll end up saying that the music sounded beautiful or that the DJ was great or whatever, and the opposite when the sound source is of less quality.
I cannot say this about really big clubs, because I haven't played them enough, but I do play reguraly at an intimate warm and small club, for about 300 people, and the sound system there is pretty good. The difference when you play vinyl to when you play CD or when people play audio from computers (and they do) is vast (again, 'vast' for me). I can always tell the difference in a second. The warmth of the vinyl encompasses you in the club, you swim in it's pool of sound, it feels more alive, more in your face, move moving and punchy.
I want to loose as little of these qualities as I possible can.
MHO
Purple
Quickie...
Here is what I'd do...
go to your options menu... preferences
Under the misc tab check to make sure that your record bit depth is set to 24...
under the defaults tab check that the clip section has "hi quality" set to on...
Now for your existing songs... when you drag it into a track... double click the song and go to the sample section of the clip. You ought to see a button that says "Hi-Q", before playing your song make sure that this is on.
I would also suggest, if you want a 'pure' example/test here... make sure that both warp and loop are not on. I would set your algorythm which would default to beats, make it re-pitch on the off chance something funky might be going on... but you could play with the other settings to see if they improve your sonic quality.
Well possibly there are people who like deep muddy crap
Personally I think it is a matter of preference to 'live and let live' or to get your entire system geared up to your personal tastes. I think most people are more than happy to leave it alone, but hey, there is *nothing* wrong with trying to get everything you possibly can out of your system sonically... and you can't very well learn what the limits are without testing them...
My only other comment might be for you to try and actually record the track in live using your "live in" to get the sound... then play it through live... see if that matches up well with the record... and then try using the sample section's edit button, load it up in sound forge and do your a/b comparisson again...
hope this helps ya man...
go to your options menu... preferences
Under the misc tab check to make sure that your record bit depth is set to 24...
under the defaults tab check that the clip section has "hi quality" set to on...
Now for your existing songs... when you drag it into a track... double click the song and go to the sample section of the clip. You ought to see a button that says "Hi-Q", before playing your song make sure that this is on.
I would also suggest, if you want a 'pure' example/test here... make sure that both warp and loop are not on. I would set your algorythm which would default to beats, make it re-pitch on the off chance something funky might be going on... but you could play with the other settings to see if they improve your sonic quality.
Well possibly there are people who like deep muddy crap
Personally I think it is a matter of preference to 'live and let live' or to get your entire system geared up to your personal tastes. I think most people are more than happy to leave it alone, but hey, there is *nothing* wrong with trying to get everything you possibly can out of your system sonically... and you can't very well learn what the limits are without testing them...
My only other comment might be for you to try and actually record the track in live using your "live in" to get the sound... then play it through live... see if that matches up well with the record... and then try using the sample section's edit button, load it up in sound forge and do your a/b comparisson again...
hope this helps ya man...
Well, i would agree with you to some extent. Like I said, the sound in DP 4 seems larger, and my friends compositions did have a much wider stereo field then my Live tracks. Again though it boiled down to technique, which you as well, seem to be trying to do in a different manner.
First, the defualt setting for hi quality/standard should be in the Live preferences, either under audio or misc, i can't remember off hand. Second, make sure that Live's ouput is set to 24 bit, 96k - I know that the defualt is 16 bit 44.1k on my setup. Even if my samples are 24 bit 96k, the ouput might be different. This could have the impact on the sound you're looking for.
Now, I agree with letting your ears be the judge. But the fact is that unless the club has a great sound system, it's not really going to matter. I see people loosing their sheet to dj's who only play cd's. Usually, the clubs system is either so severly compressed or limited that it destroys those nuances in the sound. Now, perhaps you can hear the difference, and that has an effect on you, and you impart either negative or positive effect into you spinning. You're swimming in the a pool of sound, surfing on vinyl, so you energy lifts and works the corwd the way that you're feeling. I think that's just a valid explanation for any subconcious effect the fiedlity of the media may have in 99% of the clubs. I'm also a DJ, although only for 4 years, not you much respected 12. And I also spin deep and soulful house, with a little bit of tech thrown in occasionally, so I understand what those nuances may mean to you. Personally, I can't spin CD's - too harsh, too bright, well, I think you know what I'm talking about.
Try the test on your friend, in fact try it on more then one friend. See if there is any kind of consensus. But if you still feel the way you do, you won't be able to use live because you can't feel it. And if you can't feel it what's the point. It's like spinning a track you hate - it breaks your groove your flow, you can't do you job, and people will deffinetly feel that.
Make sure Live is in HiQ, and that the sound cards output is what you want.
First, the defualt setting for hi quality/standard should be in the Live preferences, either under audio or misc, i can't remember off hand. Second, make sure that Live's ouput is set to 24 bit, 96k - I know that the defualt is 16 bit 44.1k on my setup. Even if my samples are 24 bit 96k, the ouput might be different. This could have the impact on the sound you're looking for.
Now, I agree with letting your ears be the judge. But the fact is that unless the club has a great sound system, it's not really going to matter. I see people loosing their sheet to dj's who only play cd's. Usually, the clubs system is either so severly compressed or limited that it destroys those nuances in the sound. Now, perhaps you can hear the difference, and that has an effect on you, and you impart either negative or positive effect into you spinning. You're swimming in the a pool of sound, surfing on vinyl, so you energy lifts and works the corwd the way that you're feeling. I think that's just a valid explanation for any subconcious effect the fiedlity of the media may have in 99% of the clubs. I'm also a DJ, although only for 4 years, not you much respected 12. And I also spin deep and soulful house, with a little bit of tech thrown in occasionally, so I understand what those nuances may mean to you. Personally, I can't spin CD's - too harsh, too bright, well, I think you know what I'm talking about.
Try the test on your friend, in fact try it on more then one friend. See if there is any kind of consensus. But if you still feel the way you do, you won't be able to use live because you can't feel it. And if you can't feel it what's the point. It's like spinning a track you hate - it breaks your groove your flow, you can't do you job, and people will deffinetly feel that.
Make sure Live is in HiQ, and that the sound cards output is what you want.
..
you are absolutely right!!! there's issue in Live.
Here's what I've found:
- I imported a drumloop I made at 24/44.1 in Live, HQ on, no warp or loop settings.
- I imported the same drumloop in Nuendo 2.2.
In both programs I made a 24/44.1 export. Opened them both in Wavelab.
By close listening I found out that the Live file is pitched! It's just a small bit, but it surely sounds pitched.
I am sure Ableton will be able to fix this issue. It's a very small one and you need great hearing and good monitoring to detect it, but yes: Live changes the sound.
Maybe in Live there's always some sort of pitch shifting, time warping process involved, even with files which aren't warped or anything at all.
Here's what I've found:
- I imported a drumloop I made at 24/44.1 in Live, HQ on, no warp or loop settings.
- I imported the same drumloop in Nuendo 2.2.
In both programs I made a 24/44.1 export. Opened them both in Wavelab.
By close listening I found out that the Live file is pitched! It's just a small bit, but it surely sounds pitched.
I am sure Ableton will be able to fix this issue. It's a very small one and you need great hearing and good monitoring to detect it, but yes: Live changes the sound.
Maybe in Live there's always some sort of pitch shifting, time warping process involved, even with files which aren't warped or anything at all.
..
the Live version sounds higher in pitch than the Nuendo version or the original. Botht the original and the Nuendo version are the same. I let Wavelab detect differences between those files and between the Nuendo and original version only the length was just a little bit different. But between the Live and the original, the whole file is different since I am absolutely sure that in Live the whole file is pitched.
-
Guest
I think I know what he is talking about... I think even though it's the same file the levels can be different... soundforge automatically plays a sound file 'at unity'... in Live you've got the master volume fader and the track volume fader... Little changes in those could affect a tracks 'punch' which will be audibly apparent.