Is Live the End All??

mpacyga · Post by **mpacyga** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:02 pm

I recently posted this but wanted to ask everyone else.

Can Live actually be used to a full out album? I've been testing it with crapy gear to see what i can get. I recorded 6 mics on drums used a total of 17 tracks and 6 sends( for this song). I'm also using Wave Editor by Audiofile Engineering. You got to check that program OUT! MAC only...

http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/about.php

I also did this on an old laptop that could actually play back all these tracks. I had to break up the session. Which sucked bad! because my sample rate was 48k @ 24 bit. Plus the mics were cheap except for 2 Neumann TLM 103's. I don't own any fancy gate's/compressors or external gear whatsoever. Alright give a listen...

http://gee-zu.com/stuff/braintoys_v4_mst.mp3

Also I have an audio designer background and I'm getting into mixing and mastering. I used Wave Editor and Ozone3 to master this.

My main question to everyone is this worth my time to do everything in live. I have used other programs Calkwalk sonar4-6, protools, cubase... But I get frustrated with them so fast that I end up back in Live. I'm currently testing a new project with live using a way faster PC laptop and recording a 32 bit 96k rate. I don't have a end result but can anybody prove or show if its worth recording at Live's 32 float? Or should I dump live altogether for recording this same type of stuff?

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:18 pm

I think Live is more than good enough, just remember to turn off warp if you don't need it. I'd also just use 24 bit, no need for 32 bit recording IMO. The pro studios don't even use that, just doesn't add enough to make it worthwhile.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:28 pm

I think the main question is whether Live has the tools you need to do what you want. The actual sound quality is going to depend on how you're getting your signals into Live, and the tools you use to shape that sound once it's recorded; the choice of DAW is of neglible impact, IMO.

That being said, Live doesn't have as robust a feature set as Logic or Cubase, due to the fact that Live has been around a fraction of the time of the more established programs. On the other hand, for many people Live has a far superior workflow, which can make all the difference in turning out an inspired piece of quality recording.

Also, make sure you don't have warping turned unless you are willing to suffer a bit of a change in the audio you've recorded. A lot of people seem to come to the conclusion that Live has inferior sound quality because they don't realize that warping affects sound quality even if the tempo hasnt been changed (except for Repitch mode). If you need higher quality time-stretching for production work, check out Serrato's Pitch-n-Time (Mac only), or Celemony's Melodyne software.

mpacyga · Post by **mpacyga** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Can you go into detail about the robust features that Live Lacks?? Please.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:58 pm

The MIDI editing isn't the most comprehensive, no groove quantize or randomization functions. Audio editing is pretty simple, though there are usually workarounds (things like lack of crassfading and controllable fade in/out).

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:19 pm

mpacyga wrote:Can you go into detail about the robust features that Live Lacks?? Please.

I've been working on a rock album in Pro Tools for far, far too long a time. What am I doing with Pro Tools that I couldn't be doing in Live? Well, I have a bunch of RTAS plug-ins that only work in Pro Tools. Is that why I'm using Pro Tools? No. I'm using Pro Tools because this project was started on 1/2" tape, transfered to Sonar, and then transfered to Pro Tools.

Now, IF LIVE HAD THE ABILITY TO OPEN UP AN OMF FILE I would have never transfered the album to Pro Tools. So yes, Live severely lacks OMF support. But, let's not make Pro Tools the hero. Pro Tools also lacks OMF support. In order to open an OMF file in PT you need to buy the DV Toolkit, which will cost you $1099.00. No shit.

If I were you, I would work with Live. I am going to rid my life of Pro Tools when this project gets finished. It's the little things Live does that makes it worth dealing with some of its shortcomings. Take the Project Management aspect of Live. I mean, fuck! You don't know how terrible it's been trying to keep track of all of this audio information using Pro Tools. It's an aspect of the DAW that should be rock solid, but Pro Tools seems to lose track of the elements of a Session all the fucking time. (can you tell I'm frustrated?)

Ugh. And don't get me started with iLok authorizations. Rrrrrrgh!

Use Live. Make records. My two cents.

darkcatt · Post by **darkcatt** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:55 pm

Sales Dude McBoob wrote:
mpacyga wrote:.

Now, IF LIVE HAD THE ABILITY TO OPEN UP AN OMF FILE I would have never transfered the album to Pro Tools. So yes, Live severely lacks OMF support. But, let's not make Pro Tools the hero. Pro Tools also lacks OMF support. In order to open an OMF file in PT you need to buy the DV Toolkit, which will cost you $1099.00. No shit.

If I were you, I would work with Live. I am going to rid my life of Pro Tools when this project gets finished. It's the little things Live does that makes it worth dealing with some of its shortcomings. Take the Project Management aspect of Live. I mean, fuck! You don't know how terrible it's been trying to keep track of all of this audio information using Pro Tools. It's an aspect of the DAW that should be rock solid, but Pro Tools seems to lose track of the elements of a Session all the fucking time. (can you tell I'm frustrated?)

Ugh. And don't get me started with iLok authorizations. Rrrrrrgh!

Use Live. Make records. My two cents.

Just give me song/project folders and favorite tags in the directory and I will be happy. If you have the right Vst's and plugs you can do damn near everything in Live. Is it the end all be all, NO! But can you point out one thing that is short of Angelina Jolie's ass as a hat

mpacyga · Post by **mpacyga** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:21 pm

Tarekith wrote:The MIDI editing isn't the most comprehensive, no groove quantize or randomization functions. Audio editing is pretty simple, though there are usually workarounds (things like lack of crassfading and controllable fade in/out).

I agree with the whole cross fading thing but midi? Live has some pretty awesome midi control the only problem is that its not right there in front of you. Most of the time in my experience is that you need to make custom changes all the time. What type of midi things are you trying to do?

Also Fade IN/OUT function? use a wave editor of some sort or use the custom draw tool to make your own fade... I wish you could assign the fader for that track to the highest nodes in a volume line... Does that make sense?

http://gee-zu.com/stuff/LiveNodes.jpg

Or can you assign nodes (if thats what you call them)?

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:43 pm

mpacyga wrote:
Tarekith wrote:The MIDI editing isn't the most comprehensive, no groove quantize or randomization functions. Audio editing is pretty simple, though there are usually workarounds (things like lack of crassfading and controllable fade in/out).
I agree with the whole cross fading thing but midi? Live has some pretty awesome midi control the only problem is that its not right there in front of you. Most of the time in my experience is that you need to make custom changes all the time. What type of midi things are you trying to do?

Also Fade IN/OUT function? use a wave editor of some sort or use the custom draw tool to make your own fade... I wish you could assign the fader for that track to the highest nodes in a volume line... Does that make sense?

http://gee-zu.com/stuff/LiveNodes.jpg

Or can you assign nodes (if thats what you call them)?

A friend of mine who is an active Live user complains about the MIDI in Live. He uses external MIDI devices, like a MPC type of thing, and he says the timing in Pro Tools is a lot tighter-- or Live's MIDI sync isn't as good-- or something. I've never had a problem, but I trust this dude's know-how.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:49 pm

Tarekith wrote:The MIDI editing isn't the most comprehensive, no groove quantize or randomization functions. Audio editing is pretty simple, though there are usually workarounds (things like lack of crassfading and controllable fade in/out).

Those are pretty much the things I miss in Live, but not nearly enough to use something else. I know there are other things that Live doesn't do that may or may not be useful to a user....things like transcribing MIDI to notation, sophisticated MIDI filters, audio editor functions such as gapping, slicing, etc...but there are workarounds for nearly everything.

DJDJ · Post by **DJDJ** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:18 pm

mpacyga wrote:Can you go into detail about the robust features that Live Lacks?? Please.

The option for destructive audio editing. auto crossfades. Rex file support ( I personally don't care, but most other DAW's support this). The ability to offline process clips with audio plugins without having to resample or bounce. Midi quantise grooves. Better control over impulse. Folder tracks. 5.1 Surround mixing. Automation curves instead of steps at the clip level and track level. Pro sounding plugins. Pro quality instruments (more thatn one synth, drum machine, etc...). The ability to freeze instruments that are routed to other tracks (ie: battery outs going to 3 tracks, and I want to freeze battery).

The list goes on and on....

there even a subforum for all the feature requests on this very website. Many of these requests are for features found in other popular Sequencers.

it's kind of a silly question.

Ableton is NOT perfect, but it is AMAZING. I love it and prefer it by far to all other Daws, and Dj systems. What it lacks in power and "pro" sounding instruemtns and effects, it makes up for in efficiency, flexibility, and ease of use. I know not everyone want to see it grow into a full blown DAW, but I prefer sequencing in Live, and would love to see it's DAW side strengthened.

DJDJ · Post by **DJDJ** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:20 pm

Oh, and in response to the original question, I say:

to my taste, I would never make a whole album solely in Live. I love it, but I find Logic far clearer sounding and better suited to mixing down a track. Live is, however, my tool of choice for creating music, Just not mixing it.

Daim · Post by **Daim** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:26 pm

DJDJ wrote:I prefer sequencing in Live, and would love to see it's DAW side strengthened.