how to get away from the ableton sound.

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:09 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:lets just keep going with this while i'm nice and pissed off. One of these cats also believes that to properly warp any track, you must have a warp marker every bar... also complete nonsense. But don't try to argue it to him, he's right and you are wrong and no evidence to support your claim matters in the face of his stubborn ignorance that he calls "experience" assholes.

.lm.

I did do a lot of the phase cancellation tests, and you are absolutely correct. Perfect cancellation in most instances. I did find a weirdness a few times, but it wasn't anything big. I forget what it was even, so it probably didn't bother me much. I think it had something to do with changing the warp mode a couple of times on a recorded track, and something not cancelling perfectly, but it didn't always happen.

So, I completely agree. There are a lot of people out there who just "have a feeling".

Best,
AB

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:22 pm

yes, if you change warp mode mid stream multiple times it can throw stuff off. This goes away if you stop the track and replay, and doesn't happen every time. I don't find it that crazy that if you change a warp mode while the clip is playing that it might be offset by a millisecond or two. That's not really that alarming, is it?

The fact remains that warp does not affect the sound of an audio clip at orig. tempo using any warp mode *except complex*. Unless you try to do crazy stuff to make it not work.

in terms of live somehow coloring audio, i don't buy that either. I think it's all in people's heads. I'm sorry, but there's just no way that a PCM audio file is going to play back differently from one soft to the next. How could it? And as to the mystical summing buss, i'm also not buying it. If there is a difference between different software's summing busses (which i contend there isn't) the difference would be so negligable that i doubt anyone could pick it out.

so in the end i say, no, there is no "ableton sound". Yeah, certain plug ins can be easy to spot if used in an unimaginative way, and yes, when warp is used it can be picked out as being ableton warping, but what do you want??

.lm.

radib · Post by **radib** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:25 pm

leisuremuffin wrote: so in the end i say, no, there is no "ableton sound".

bullshit. even if you exclusively use third party tools inside live you have a characteristic sound due to the engine´s summing. the more live-plugs/instr. you use the less subtle that tone-colour gets.

but thats same with every mixer.

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:28 pm

radib wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote: so in the end i say, no, there is no "ableton sound".
bullshit. even if you exclusively use third party tools inside live you have a characteristic sound due to the engine´s summing. the more live-plugs/instr. you use the less subtle that tone-colour gets.

but thats same with every mixer.

Oh no you di'int. That is going to start this all over again.

All I have to say is, "Move along, there is nothing to see here". "We're walking, we're walking."

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:29 pm

ok, fine, you think so? show us. Mix some stuff in the box using your soft of choice, then in ableton, post the two files and we'll see if anybody can tell which is which.

no effects, no plugs, no warping, no nothing, just pcm audio files.

go for it.

i'll listen to em.

.lm.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:30 pm

if not, you can shut your trap.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:33 pm

leisuremuffin wrote: no it did not come down from the abes themselves.

the abes correctly claim that warping does not affect a clip at it's orig. tempo with the one exception of complex mode.

Cool, thanks for correcting that, that makes my life simpler. As I said, I had the default warp mode set to Complex, which does affect the sound at original tempo, so it's good to know I can rely on the other three. Yeah, hard to argue with complete cancellation.

I still think this causes issues with sound quality for some users. If they have preferences set to default clips to Complex, or even if they change the project tempo after recording some parts, its going to affect the sound. It may seem obvious that time-stretching is not perfect, but not everyone realizes that, and I'd bet that's the group of people making the most noise about Live's sound quality. If there was some minute difference in Live's summing buss, I doubt that very many people have good enough ears to hear it. I'm sure the skin affects the sound for some people...

radib · Post by **radib** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:33 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:ok, fine, you think so? show us. Mix some stuff in the box using your soft of choice, then in ableton, post the two files and we'll see if anybody can tell which is which.

no effects, no plugs, no warping, no nothing, just pcm audio files.

go for it.

i'll listen to em.

.lm.

guess there were threads in the past with frequency analysis and sorts who shew up really enough.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:14 pm

i don't know if there was ever extensive freq. analysis ar anything like that, but i believe tarekith did some comparisons that confirmed that there was no significant difference.

you want to make a BIG difference in how your audio sounds? Buy a better audio interface or converter. You know why everybody loves how protools HD sounds? because it runs on one of the best audio interfaces available. It's not the software's summing bus.

.lm.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:26 pm

...or work on better studio acoustics, better mixing technique, better composition, better sound design, better mastering, etc. Jeez, how did fantastic albums like Dark Side of the Moon ever get made on crappy 70's equipment?

(I hate the wink emoticon here....its far to smug for the meaning I want...:sigh:)

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:00 pm

this complaint re audio quality is so obviously the result of people not realizing warp is on and using wrong warp mode (i.e., anything other than beats), so that live actually does affect sound quality even at original tempo. painful to see this all come up again, but i still blame ableton for not making this clear (i think lots of folk pick complex assuming it's best when it's not).

evernaut · Post by **evernaut** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:19 pm

Ahhh, we'll be turning into a 40 page thread now we've invoked the great DAW debate.

As we all know, there's no difference whatsoever between Live and any other digital software sequencer ( See about a trillion forum debates here & elsewhere for details )

The "Live" sound comes, as I think we've established, from the use of warping & the (over?)use of the instruments & presets it contains.

So - bottom line - if you don't want the Live sound, don't use Live in a lazy, predictable way...and turn that warping off till you find you need it

And there's to be no more talk of panning laws and summing.

Or else.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:24 pm

oh, if you think the 40 page debate is bad, wait until i snap and post a flame thread about one of the people making insane claims without backing up their statements.

and then everybody will be all like:

"Ohh, look at what a bad guy that leisuremuffin is. He's an asshole and a horrible human being."

.lm.

Michael-SW · Post by **Michael-SW** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:12 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:i don't know if there was ever extensive freq. analysis ar anything like that, but i believe tarekith did some comparisons that confirmed that there was no significant difference.

...

.lm.

Yep. Seem to remember he did a Cubase/Live summing comparison and got phase cancellation on the result.

radib · Post by **radib** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:00 am

leisuremuffin wrote:i don't know if there was ever extensive freq. analysis ar anything like that, but i believe tarekith did some comparisons that confirmed that there was no significant difference.

he compared to the old cubase, not to logic and not to pro tools. but sure the basical difference is a subtle kind, but the more data the more the sum differs. whole widely extended projects therefore would show there is a maybe even "significant" difference, however this could be defined.

leisuremuffin wrote: you want to make a BIG difference in how your audio sounds? Buy a better audio interface or converter. You know why everybody loves how protools HD sounds? because it runs on one of the best audio interfaces available.

sure, not just that, the whole environment got another quality (and: price). i wrote something related a few hours ago (Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:28 am) into this thread:

a real professional super hyper giga whatthefuck studio based on pro tools will cost you about 50.000, fitting accessoires as monitors, mics and stuff included. then you´ll need even a specially designed room for not fuck up any subtle frequency.

so as you might see, i personally don´t care much about the sound issue as long as it fits my approach. when i´m listening to the records people do that are shouting ableton live so bad bad bad sounding, i fall in miserable laughters. they don´t know what music is about and so their stuff sounds. not the most powerful workstation in the world could really help them.
but despite all that, to close eyes in clear front of facts ain´t comfortable after a while or another. nevermind and cheers.