sound issues with final mix

ATLdj · Post by **ATLdj** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:33 pm

This is killin me.....i'm pretty much using Live 6 for edits and remixes at this point...my struggle has been getting what i create in the studio to sound at least somewhat ok when i play it on a big system.....

Up until a week ago I've been using the Mackie 824's by themselves and now have added a Blue Sky 12" sub (which made it sound beautiful)....so it got me all excited and I started editing all these tracks and mashin up....they sounded GREAT in the studio.....and i went to hear them on a club system last night and ALL of them are muddy and rumbling......

I pretty much letft the individual tracks alone (i just adjusted volumes so they sit well together) I put a PSP Vintage warmer on the master to make it sound a bit louder and more clear then I converted it to mp3 (320 and highest quality) in wavelab 6 and used a multibanc compressor....they sound GREAT at home.....I even played them on my bigger system and mixed them against others that I know are professionally masterd......not quite the same, but they definitely stand up......

SOMEONE HELP!!!!

laird · Post by **laird** » Tue May 01, 2007 4:01 pm

I generally relax on the compression when rendering files I intend to compress to mp3.

PSP vintagewarmer + mutliband compression + mp3 compression = no dynamics, no pop and no thump, which on a club system will tend to sound, well, muddy and flat.

ATLdj · Post by **ATLdj** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:15 pm

AHH makes sense......Thank you very much!!!

I'm gonna make the adjustments and I'll get to go listen at the club again tomorrow night and will definitely let you know how goes it!!!!

Thanks again.

ATLdj · Post by **ATLdj** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:29 am

Well as you said....i took off all compression (excepting mp3) and had a listen last night.....WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!

THANK YOU LAIRD!!!!!
peace.
ATLdj

Syntheme · Post by **Syntheme** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:07 am

use the mix knob in vintage warmer to allow through some of the uncompressed peaks, get a balance between increased detail and retaining punch

mp3 'compression' (data) is different to compressor 'compression' (dynamics)

krank · Post by **krank** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:54 am

ATLdj wrote:Well as you said....i took off all compression (excepting mp3) and had a listen last night.....WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!

THANK YOU LAIRD!!!!!
peace.
ATLdj

Could you be bothered to upload the old and new version somewhere? It'd be interesting to hear just what the difference is.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri May 04, 2007 7:22 am

Syntheme wrote:use the mix knob in vintage warmer to allow through some of the uncompressed peaks, get a balance between increased detail and retaining punch

mp3 'compression' (data) is different to compressor 'compression' (dynamics)

ive had good results this way in the past, but to be honest it scares me to do that on a mixbus compressor. main reason being is that im afraid of possible phase being introduced by having a modified version of the same master going out at the same time as the original.

i know vintagewarmer is tried and tested but that doesn't mean im not paranoid

Syntheme · Post by **Syntheme** » Fri May 04, 2007 7:56 am

sweetjesus wrote:
Syntheme wrote:use the mix knob in vintage warmer to allow through some of the uncompressed peaks, get a balance between increased detail and retaining punch

mp3 'compression' (data) is different to compressor 'compression' (dynamics)
ive had good results this way in the past, but to be honest it scares me to do that on a mixbus compressor. main reason being is that im afraid of possible phase being introduced by having a modified version of the same master going out at the same time as the original.

i know vintagewarmer is tried and tested but that doesn't mean im not paranoid

the dry and compressed signals are perfectly in phase if you use the mix knob - if u used VW as a send effect, you would have phase issues though.

depending on the mix, i usually have the mix knob between 50 and 70%. I then take it into soundforge and use wave hammer to remove freak transient peaks (i'll add 2 or 3 dB with the release set to 0.1 ms)

laird · Post by **laird** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:35 pm

yes, data compression isn't the same as audio compression.

mp3 data compression is a complex process, but the bottom line is, I think, mp3s sound "compressed". And "compressing" the audio before "compressing" the audio sounds bad, often distorted.

Mp3 compression involves a sort of decision making process: more bits are used to encode stuff that is, psychoacoustically, important. Like loud percussive sounds, they get more bits, at the expense of frames that follow said percussive sounds. Also, quiet bass bands can get fewer chunks of data when loud high freqency bands "need" that data.

Compressing your audio files before making an mp3 will reduce these important frequency/volume differences that mp3 encoderss use to balance unimportant data versus important stuff. When everything is equal, mp3 compression makes poorer decisions, and I think generally sounds worse.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:52 pm

A good rule of thumb (for me anyway) is to roll off the bass on anything that is not meant to be bass. This alone will reduce a good deal of 'mud'.

Also, make sure there is no conlfict between the kick and bass by using sidechain compression to duck the bass when the kick hits, or by careful EQing of the kick and bass so they are not stepping on each other's frequencies.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:54 pm

laird wrote:Compressing your audio files before making an mp3 will reduce these important frequency/volume differences that mp3 encoderss use to balance unimportant data versus important stuff. When everything is equal, mp3 compression makes poorer decisions, and I think generally sounds worse.

Interesting. This makes sense to me.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:06 pm

Eq is all important. Compression is a distant second. One MUST take out the garbage FIRST (mud). Mixing "is" mastering. When a mix is compressed all relative frequencies get closer to one another. What you like about the mix gets turned down, what you hate about the mix gets turned up. EQ with 80% cut moves, then compress and EQ again.

queglay · Post by **queglay** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:09 pm

dont forget - big systems usualy have mono subs below 400 ish hertz - they are not stereo. therefor any stereo bass beneath those freqencies will also get blurry/muddy.

its good practice to keep those low frequencies mono to begin with. if you hate your basslines after this add another layer above this frequency range that is stereo.

queglay · Post by **queglay** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:37 pm

ethios4 wrote:Also, make sure there is no conlfict between the kick and bass by using sidechain compression to duck the bass when the kick hits, or by careful EQing of the kick and bass so they are not stepping on each other's frequencies.

hey is it possible to use side chain compression on compressors that are better than the live one?

like urs or sonalksis plugins or sojmething?

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Sat May 05, 2007 5:21 pm

queglay wrote:dont forget - big systems usualy have mono subs below 400 ish hertz - they are not stereo. therefor any stereo bass beneath those freqencies will also get blurry/muddy.

its good practice to keep those low frequencies mono to begin with. if you hate your basslines after this add another layer above this frequency range that is stereo.

interesting, how would you convert a stereo bass track into mono without affecting anything above a given freq? maybe a rack with eq3 to split the freqs 2 directions and then a utility plug to mono one of them?