defies Logic

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
beats me
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defies Logic

Post by beats me » Tue May 22, 2007 3:23 pm

I went into a studio last week because I thought it would be a great learning experience to watch somebody play with my tracks as opposed to reading about it or doing some file exchange over the Internet. I was correct and it was well worth the time and money. The engineer knew Ableton but found it frustrating so I rendered the individual tracks and he loaded them into Logic. This inspired me to run out and get Logic Express and a second monitor so I could look all pimping with the arrangement window on 1 monitor and the mixer on the other.

Based on what I was doing and planning to still do the bulk of the writing in Ableton the engineer told me I should be fine with Logic Express. From what I've seen here are some of the things you get with Logic and not Logic Express.

1. limited to 12 audio inputs - That's already 10 more than I need.

2. Less effects and instruments - I have plenty of plugins so this doesn't bother me.

3. No markers - I've gone this long without the arrangement telling me where the chorus is so why start now.

4. Can't map faders, knobs, buttons, etc. on your controllers - That pisses me off, but whatever.

Those would all be cool features to have, but not $700 more cool.

I also got some Logic training DVD videos. So I dump in one of my songs into Logic Express and start watching the videos, bouncing between watching videos and applying things to my song. I'm about 12 videos deep and it's still just telling me how to set the thing up. WTF? I spend several hours just setting up the song and making it pretty. Some of the stuff Ableton just does automatically, like routing the audio to the matching mixer track when you move the track on the arrangement. After those productive hours I decide to call it a night and save the song. I saved it twice. Once just using save and also as a project which copies all the audio files as well.

The next day I go to open the song to finally work on something and during the loading it tells me the audio files can't be found, opening from either file I saved it as. I'm staring right at the files and it tells me it can't find them. I use the method to load them manually, but not only do the file names not match (which it should have named itself in project save) but I click on every single audio file in the folder and it keeps telling me "No, that's not it". For fuck sake.

Blah. I just went back into working on things in Ableton and I got a lot more done applying what I learned in the studio….but not using "logic". :x

thelocalhost
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Re: defies Logic

Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 5:52 pm

beats me wrote:Those would all be cool features to have, but not $700 more cool.

I also got some Logic training DVD videos. So I dump in one of my songs into Logic Express and start watching the videos, bouncing between watching videos and applying things to my song. I'm about 12 videos deep and it's still just telling me how to set the thing up. WTF? I spend several hours just setting up the song and making it pretty. Some of the stuff Ableton just does automatically, like routing the audio to the matching mixer track when you move the track on the arrangement. After those productive hours I decide to call it a night and save the song. I saved it twice. Once just using save and also as a project which copies all the audio files as well.
Logic is a very deep, flexible and customizable program. Don't expect to 'master' it in a week. Also, the fundamentals of Logic are VERY different than other programs. The Environment is perhaps the most brillant feature. You can do amazing midi altering/modification in the Enviornment (at least in LogicPro). It takes a bit of time to setup Logic to meet your workflow needs. Once you've invested this time and constructed a few templates, you'll find you can do things very quickly and your productivity increase dramatically.

Also, you can't compare Logic and Live. Live has a learning curve that could be measured in femtoseconds, while Logic has a pretty significant learning curve. Live is a brillant program (particularly the session view) but it's also very feature limited (e.g., No time signature changes, no groove templates, no screensets, no Enviornment-esque layer for midi altering/modification). Logic is just a very different program. It's based on a very different set of principles that allow you to be in control. It completely destroys other programs in terms of midi use.

I think LogicPro is definitely worth the $700. Sculpture, GuitarAmpPro, Ultrabeat and SpaceDesigner are just a few features that come to mind to validate the cost.

beats me wrote:Blah. I just went back into working on things in Ableton and I got a lot more done applying what I learned in the studio….but not using "logic". :x
I hear this comment so many times and I never understand this specious statement.

If you don't understand the principles of the program, you can't use deductive reasoning, or logic to 'infer' how it works (i.e., things won't make sense). When you say "not using logic", you mean "i really don't know how the program fundamentally works". Once you understand some of the principles the program is predicated on, then you can use reason to do things that you haven't explicitly read in the manual; these things will just be logical.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Tue May 22, 2007 6:03 pm

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine getting Logic and expecting to know it within a week. I say that as I recently switched to Logic as my DAW instead of Live, and while I picked it up pretty quick, it IS a VERY deep program. If the song couldn't find the audio files, it's not the song's or Logic's fault, it's your own for not saving the project as a "project" I'd guess.

beats me
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Post by beats me » Tue May 22, 2007 6:27 pm

I should mention that I am not new to DAWs and have used more versions of Cubase then I care to recall. I don't expect to learn something as complex as Logic in a day or even a week. That's not my point.

The main point is that it couldn't load the files that IT created when saving as a project. How can you not get any more basic than than that? It loads a file it created. It was all just audio files, no vst's or even anything so much as an EQ setting. Doesn't seem like a big demand to me. If there is some weird ass way you have to save files in certain directories or something like that than it should be obvious and/or give you warnings as such.

thelocalhost
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Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 pm

beats me wrote:I should mention that I am not new to DAWs and have used more versions of Cubase then I care to recall. I don't expect to learn something as complex as Logic in a day or even a week. That's not my point.

The main point is that it couldn't load the files that IT created when saving as a project. How can you not get any more basic than than that? It loads a file it created. It was all just audio files, no vst's or even anything so much as an EQ setting. Doesn't seem like a big demand to me. If there is some weird ass way you have to save files in certain directories or something like that than it should be obvious and/or give you warnings as such.
It's a bit hard to understand what you're saying, but I think you might want to read the manual a bit.

You saved it as a project, right? Logic also has a Project manager, did you look into that?

If you want to save your setup as a template, than save it as a template and load that template when you make a new project. The default template is 'Autoload' it will be the default lso when you start up logic.

Also, Logic doesn't use VST.
Last edited by thelocalhost on Tue May 22, 2007 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thelocalhost
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Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 6:45 pm

beats me wrote:I should mention that I am not new to DAWs and have used more versions of Cubase then I care to recall. I don't expect to learn something as complex as Logic in a day or even a week. That's not my point.
It's not complex. It's just different. It's almost it's own category of DAW. It contains so many different idea/concept that aren't in other DAW, therefore it functions in a different way. This is why the learning curve is so steep.

I understand you frustration (Seriously, I do).

beats me
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Post by beats me » Tue May 22, 2007 7:43 pm

I think Logic and Live are going to be a killer combo but it terrifies me when I can't open a song I saved with it.

OK, Logic can't use vsts but I just meant I didn't even use any plugins at all, no au either.

My question (problem) isn't that complex. No, I am not trying to save a template. All I did was import 13 audio tracks into it. The only changes I made were change the order of the tracks in the arrangement (and routed them to the corresponding mixer tracks), change the icons, change the color of the tracks, and cut out the portions of the tracks where there was no audio. That's it. I then selected save as project, told it to copy audio files, and selected a destination folder. I assumed this would put all the data, the song file, and copy all the audio tracks in the same folder. That appears like what it did because there are 13 audio files in that folder. I didn't move or adjust anything after that, but when I click on the song file in the project folder it says it can't find the audio tracks.

Thoughts?

I appreciate you guys helping me out here because I know this isn't a Logic forum, but what I am finding funny is I am being asked "what exactly are you trying to do?" when all I am trying to do is save a song and reopen it. It's like working with these more complex and deeper applications causes people to stop thinking about the basics and in simple terms.

thelocalhost
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Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 8:12 pm

You still haven't answer the fundamental question,

Did you use the "save as project" option?

beats me
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Post by beats me » Tue May 22, 2007 8:22 pm

Yes, I did. I mentioned that several times but didn't put it in quotes. In fact I did a regular "save as...." AND "save as project" in a different location and neither of those would open the audio.

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Tue May 22, 2007 8:44 pm

Logic destroys other daws for MIDI....
Logic has great MIDI but pretty much Cubase, Sonar and DP also have great MIDI functionality and therefore, imho, Logic does not 'destroy' these applications, it maybe leads in one or two areas but then again, some of these other daws have stronger elements too.

Although compared to Live, Acid, FL and Pro Tools it definately offers a lot more.

Apple fanboyism reigns supreme on this forum :!:
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

Davengeful
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Post by Davengeful » Tue May 22, 2007 9:19 pm

I have both Logic Express 7 and Ableton... I've decided to stick with Ableton (it fits my needs more).

So I'm selling Logic Express 7 for the low, low price of $150 USD. Apple allows a one-time license transfer, so here's a registerable (if that's a word) Logic Express for half price.

But wait, there's more! Buy my copy of Logic Express right now and I'll throw in a vegetable peeler! Potato Peelings will fly off with ease... and it shreds carrots into thin ribbons within mere minutes. Buy it today!!! PM me if you're interested.

:D
My life is spent in one long effort to escape the commonplaces of existence.

thelocalhost
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Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 9:20 pm

beats me wrote:Yes, I did. I mentioned that several times but didn't put it in quotes. In fact I did a regular "save as...." AND "save as project" in a different location and neither of those would open the audio.
I just wanted to make sure that you were using the 'save as project' option?

When you use the "save as project" there are several options to copy files to a this projects folder, etc... What options are you using?

What do you mean by 'open the audio'?

The audio files don't show up in the project manager?

thelocalhost
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Post by thelocalhost » Tue May 22, 2007 9:27 pm

leedsquietman wrote:
Logic destroys other daws for MIDI....
Logic has great MIDI but pretty much Cubase, Sonar and DP also have great MIDI functionality and therefore, imho, Logic does not 'destroy' these applications, it maybe leads in one or two areas but then again, some of these other daws have stronger elements too.
I agree. For some projects, a particular tool (i.e. DAW) is better suited for a specific task/workflow. I've never believed that there is 1 infinitely supreme DAW that is meant to be used for every task.

Are you familar with Logic's Environment? There is nothing like it in any other DAW. That's one of the reasons I think Logic is dramatically better in midi than any other DAW.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Tue May 22, 2007 9:50 pm

I've used Cubase since version 2.4, Live, Sonar/Cakewalk, and now I'm on Logic. I'd have to agree that Logic is by far the best one for MIDI, if only because the Environment lets you really do a lot that no other app can do in terms of routing and filtering. The only thing that it loses on is the Logical Editor from SX IMO. Logic has the Transform functions which are close, but I still think Logical Editor in SX is more powerful. Even without that though, I definitely think Logic wins at MIDI.

beat me, you might want to visit the Logicprohelp.com forums:

http://www.logicprohelp.com/forums.php? ... e04dae49f3

Very friendly people there. Sounds liek you're not doing something right, because even out of the box with no manual reading I was able to do what you are having issues with. Without being there to see exactly what you're doing, it's hard to say though.

I HIGHLY recommend you get the macprohelp.com videos for Logic, mainly Logic 101 (basics) and 105 (Environment). You'll be up and running in no time after watching those. They have DL versions that are cheaper too.

beats me
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Post by beats me » Tue May 22, 2007 10:01 pm

Yeah, thanks for all your help guys but I think I am pounding this one into the dirt here and should probably take it to the Logic forum. My point was more of props to Ableton but I do plan to work this Logic thing out.

Personally I think it's some kind of glitch or bug because not even the complexity of Logic would make it so you seemingly saved a song (all the files appear in the same folder) and later can't open it.

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