Still No Time Signature Changes!!!!

[eyeknow]

I'm confused and I studied this crap!

Actually, to me, I've noticed problems with "time signatures" or "meter" in all hosts. But I have to admit, live probably is the most confusing. But that could certainly be just me.

Isn't the bottom half on these things basically a "preference" where it's what you working with? I've done allot of 2/4 but not any 2/2 that I can think of.....

Ok, I'm making things worse......sorry........

[leisuremuffin]

I still think something is not quite right. Trying to process amaury's last post and i sort of understand what he's saying...... but it implies that my bar of 2/2 in a 4/4 track at 120bpm is actually played back at 60bpm. or something?


all i know about time signature is:

top number is how many beats in a measure

bottom number is what note equals a beat.




and that tells me that the same notes are played twice as fast in 2/2 than in 4/4.


and that in 6/8, an 1/8th note gets one beat, making it the same length as a quarter note in 4/4 at the same tempo....

ooops, not so in live.




.lm.

[TomTom]

The way it seems to me is the bottom number being 2 instead of 4 is nearly irrelevant if you're not notating.

If what you hear from a metronome is "click click click click", then in 4/4 you count one-two-three-four and you notate each note with a quarter note. If instead you're in 2/2 you count "one-two-one-two"...same metronome tempo, same musical feel, but in notation all the beats are written as half notes. It does seem that very fast phrases in 2/2 time can be notated without using as many flags (i.e. in 2/2 you can notate a phrase using 16th notes whereas the same phrase in 4/4 would be written as 32nd notes...a tad more confusing).

[leisuremuffin]

correct!

but using time signature at all is pretty much useless unless you're notating.



and what you just said does not change the fact that if i write some music in 4/4, then decide to erase the 4/4 at the beginning and replace it with a 2/2 it will be twice as fast if played at the same tempo...



.lm.

[TomTom]

and what you just said does not change the fact that if i write some music in 4/4, then decide to erase the 4/4 at the beginning and replace it with a 2/2 it will be twice as fast if played at the same tempo...

Agree.

[Amaury]

Hi,

Sorry for the confusion. Even in classical score, you get a time signature, and a tempo. And the tempo is generally: '1/4 = 134' or '1/8 = 125'. Which means that the tempo is not expressed in 'one beat', but in a fixed musical value. For instance, in Live , the tempo is always a '1/4'.

In a score, you can have both time signature changes, and tempo changes. they don't necessarily match.

Now, if you take a tempo of 120, where 1/4 = 120, the difference between 4/4 and 2/2, is where some accents will fall. Different styles have different requirements, but again, in a classical world, it is much different to have a 4/4 and a 2/2, even if the absolute time is the same for one bar.

Hope it helps.
Regards,
Amaury

[krank]

Hi,

Sorry for the confusion. Even in classical score, you get a time signature, and a tempo. And the tempo is generally: '1/4 = 134' or '1/8 = 125'. Which means that the tempo is not expressed in 'one beat', but in a fixed musical value. For instance, in Live , the tempo is always a '1/4'.

In a score, you can have both time signature changes, and tempo changes. they don't necessarily match.

Now, if you take a tempo of 120, where 1/4 = 120, the difference between 4/4 and 2/2, is where some accents will fall. Different styles have different requirements, but again, in a classical world, it is much different to have a 4/4 and a 2/2, even if the absolute time is the same for one bar.

Hope it helps.
Regards,
Amaury

Never mind all that, then. But please - is time signature change scheduled for Live 7?

[leisuremuffin]

i guess i should leave you alone about it since i don't really care that much, but i just don't think that makes sense. why would anyone want to write in 2/2 where a beat =1/4? you're saying it's for phrasing and i'm not buying. the down beat is still on the same exact spot in 2/2 and 4/4 if the tempo is set to 1/4 = 120, there would be no compelling reason to use the signature at all in that case.



.lm.

[Tone Deft]

Hi,

Sorry for the confusion. Even in classical score, you get a time signature, and a tempo. And the tempo is generally: '1/4 = 134' or '1/8 = 125'. Which means that the tempo is not expressed in 'one beat', but in a fixed musical value. For instance, in Live , the tempo is always a '1/4'.

In a score, you can have both time signature changes, and tempo changes. they don't necessarily match.

Now, if you take a tempo of 120, where 1/4 = 120, the difference between 4/4 and 2/2, is where some accents will fall. Different styles have different requirements, but again, in a classical world, it is much different to have a 4/4 and a 2/2, even if the absolute time is the same for one bar.

Hope it helps.
Regards,
Amaury

Thanks for the input Amo. "in Live , the tempo is always a '1/4'." Makes sense, that's the rule to go by.

Another place where this comes into play is in the score or musical notation. Changing a song from 4/4 to 2/2 puts the measure markers closer together, 2 beats per measure or 4 beats per measure, but Live doesn't do notation (no big deal I can't site read.)

Does it really matter? No. Is it technically wrong? Maybe. There are bigger features in Live 7, this is more of a feature for someone who uses 'score editors' for writing.

I'd probably have to see how other DAWs handle metronomes and time signatures, we can agree on what 3/4 means but is there a classical definition of a metronome? As long as it keeps time and hits the '1' that works for me.

If people want to get uptight about this they can make their own click tracks in clips.


btw would that Cycling '74 collaboration help with this issue? If not. why?

[mercyplease]

This is absurd.

Version 6 and still no time signature changes are allowed in the session view?

When is this going to be implemented?

yes I know its abusrd I will try to get on the implementation tomorrow i should have a version ready for you on friday.

[thelocalhost]

This is absurd.

Version 6 and still no time signature changes are allowed in the session view?

When is this going to be implemented?

yes I know its abusrd I will try to get on the implementation tomorrow i should have a version ready for you on friday.

This is an attempt at wit?

Live is on version 6 and it doesn't have this very, very basic feature.

Feel free to add as many of your flaccid quips as you desire.

[itook4lefts]

on an unrelated note, does anyone know what time signature "myomatosis" by radiohead is? no reason, just interested.

on a related note, please give us time signature changes. esoteric stuff aside, there's loads of times dropping a little bar of 2/4 into a 4/4 pop song is useful. i know there are ways around ths, but if you've got luach quantise set to "bar", if fucks your life up.

[udp]

on an unrelated note, does anyone know what time signature "myomatosis" by radiohead is? no reason, just interested.

on a related note, please give us time signature changes. esoteric stuff aside, there's loads of times dropping a little bar of 2/4 into a 4/4 pop song is useful. i know there are ways around ths, but if you've got luach quantise set to "bar", if fucks your life up.

Just as useful, but more difficult is throwing in a 7/8 bar amonst 4/4. All this talk about 2/2 vs. 4/4 is fine, but the problem is in the numerator not the denominator. there is always an easy "translator" for the denominator ( 2*1/8=1/4_) but even switching from 4/4 to 3/4 is confusing at best. Its the flexibility there that is needed.

[leisuremuffin]

oh yeah, i was just talking about cut time because it seemed odd to me how that worked in live. Just a little thread jacking, that's all.


.lm.

[deutero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_QauW8uhZ0

Too funny, man. I just found my old Hit Stix in storage and gave them to my nephew... his poor mother....