THE RICH WHITE artists who ripped off blacks THREAD

[chrysalis33rpm]

No that's not his point, and you know that, so don't try to undermine his point but framing it as a Eurocentric is bad --> Timbaland stealing is okay. His point is illustrating the deeply rooted conceptual bias towards any community that the status quo - Eurocentric, White, Male - either competes with or feels threatened by.

Whether or not you feel that you owe a race anything is up to you. But as memebers of the status quo, white people generally avail themselves of the benefits of society, while avoiding many of the barriers and obstacles that blacks face. Case in point: Phil Spector being credited with the creation of dub gets realtively little notice, while Timabland generates pages and pages of threads in this forum alone, youtube videos, and all this controversy. So, to put it in perspective, Timbaland'd indiscretion is tiny compared to what the black community has faced and continues to face for hundreds of years.

+1

[nathannn]

No that's not his point, and you know that, so don't try to undermine his point but framing it as a Eurocentric is bad --> Timbaland stealing is okay. His point is illustrating the deeply rooted conceptual bias towards any community that the status quo - Eurocentric, White, Male - either competes with or feels threatened by.

Whether or not you feel that you owe a race anything is up to you. But as memebers of the status quo, white people generally avail themselves of the benefits of society, while avoiding many of the barriers and obstacles that blacks face. Case in point: Phil Spector being credited with the creation of dub gets realtively little notice, while Timabland generates pages and pages of threads in this forum alone, youtube videos, and all this controversy. So, to put it in perspective, Timbaland'd indiscretion is tiny compared to what the black community has faced and continues to face for hundreds of years.

+1

-7

[steve-o]

Its the difference between sampling and stealing - a fuzzy area. But a couple bars of a funk guitar is different from incorporating someone elses song into your own. But its a good question - when does sampling become stealing? And, if you release your music to the world, how can you even claim to own it in the first place? "Its gone, in the air, and you can never capture it again..."

Honestly, I think that the measure shouldn't be quantitative, i.e. what you actually use, but rather qualitative - how you use what your using. Like El-P on the front page of this site says, he uses ableton to re-arrange notes and transform the original smaple into something competely unrecognizable and new. That's where my measure lies anyway - creating something new with whatever material you have.

To that end, did Timbaland create something new? Did he re-arrange the sounds in a different way? Did he create (innovate), or merely plagarize and take someone elses work and claiming it as your own?

hmm when does sampling become stealing..well lets see, from what i remember the law says if you use any piece of some one elses music WITH OUT PERMISSION it is considered stealing.
so according to the law HE STOLE!

Oh, come on, the law is obviously struggling to catch up to this issue. I don't know anything about Timbaland, but you can't really appeal to copyright law with any kind of legitimacy on this forum!

Copyright laws - and all other forms of intellectual property - are about limiting access to knowledge - making it scarce. By making knowledge scarce, you can commodify it, it has value in society, and you can maximize profits. Its justified on the premise that you don't want someone else compensating from your work and "intangible" creations. But if stealing a guitar riff is actionable under copyright infringement, then why isn't playing that guitar riff yourself? Isn't it functionally the same thing - the order of the notes, the instrument, the music?

[b0unce]

The OP frames the issue in a misleading way, basically saying that if you can't come up with a specific example, then the idea of white people musically stealing from blacks is somehow undermined.

no, I didnt say or phrase anything in a misleading way. Be a little more specific, with quotes please. I never said 'if you cant X then Y must be so' or anything close to it. I merely took adonis statement as fact, and asked for details off you, him, anyone who cares to share...because I was at a loss for those facts. Besides, the real OP is adonis - I merely started the discussion he wants to have before addressing timbaland's "minor indescretion" ...Ya, I guess its a minor indescretion compared to the slave-trade.....but its pretty weak to play the race card in the timbaland discussion.

Then OP attempts to distinguish between stealing a song and stealing an entire form or style of music, with the latter somehow being somewhat less significant. All this, based on the characterization that DJAdonis statement somehow amounts to a racist statement.

I dont believe you can steal a 'form' of music, I dont care who plays irish-trad music, I dont care who plays reggae....its plagiarism I detest, and only plagiarism. Shit like 'you stole hip-hop from black people' is exactly the kind of narrow-minded garbage I'm against. I dont deny who started it. Big ups the black community. But shutting your doors on any other participants is stupid, and using it as a crutch to justify out-right plagiarism/theft is even more stupid. Yes it is less significant that Vanilla Ice rapped, and was white. Yes its totally more significant to rob someones composition, note for note.

On one hand, OP's statments are valid. It may be hard to think of specific acts of theft - but then again its kind of hard to think of any specific acts about a topic one is not well versed in, and I'm going to assume that few people are actually well educated on this topic, with the exception of blacks. And there is a difference between stealing a song and stealing a style - but maybe the difference is negligble, or even worse since stealing a song does not de facto amount to denying the black community their cultural heritage (the difference is that stealing a song is like stealing property, while stealing a style is kind of difficult since musical styles are considered public domain; but property laws in the states were developed to serve the interest of one group only - rich, white men). So, while being valid, the OP's original statements are valid in so far as they reflect the prevaling, dominant social norm, a norm which has always and continues to harm the balck community.

what are MY original statements, old bean ?
noisetonepause covered this already, as for 'owning' a style of music...what about the musical structure they use? and the instruments too ? arent they stealing from...french people ? No. dont be ridiculous. No one has tried to deny the origins of musical genres here, its merely about what rich white folks ripped off what black folks - adonis statement, not mine. and if it amounts to anything more than white folks rapping & white folks singing the blues ?. .....if thats the behaviour that adonis [and you?] think justifies timbaland blatantly ripping off another artist, note for note - waveform for waveform, just because the dude is white....well...uh...fuck that, eh ?

[steve-o]

No that's not his point, and you know that, so don't try to undermine his point but framing it as a Eurocentric is bad --> Timbaland stealing is okay. His point is illustrating the deeply rooted conceptual bias towards any community that the status quo - Eurocentric, White, Male - either competes with or feels threatened by.

Whether or not you feel that you owe a race anything is up to you. But as memebers of the status quo, white people generally avail themselves of the benefits of society, while avoiding many of the barriers and obstacles that blacks face. Case in point: Phil Spector being credited with the creation of dub gets realtively little notice, while Timabland generates pages and pages of threads in this forum alone, youtube videos, and all this controversy. So, to put it in perspective, Timbaland'd indiscretion is tiny compared to what the black community has faced and continues to face for hundreds of years.

+1

-7

When our eyes see light for the first time, it hurts man.

[sweetjesus]

look

the easiest way to prove that we are all equal is the chemical brothers.

they make ill grooves that people thought were only possible by black musicians... the countless times ive heard white men cant groove, but the chemical brothers.. those guys got the groove.

with their block rocking beats they are the key to breaking down the racial barriers that society laps up from media and the powers that be.

The Chemical Brothers for president of the New World Order!

[steve-o]

name & shame these crackers.

Here you go - solicitation for specific identification.

[b0unce]

ya, but where's the 'or else' part you spoke of.

The OP frames the issue in a misleading way, basically saying that if you can't come up with a specific example, then the idea of white people musically stealing from blacks is somehow undermined.

so where do you extrapolate that nugget of shit from, exactly ?

[jamester]

I haven't read through this whole thread, but I'll say this:

When it comes to art, there is no such thing as exclusivity - and that's a good thing! So yeah, while some races/cultures can claim "ownership" as far as origins go, that exclusivity will not last long...nor should it! Art is a shared cultural experience.

As for hip-hop, yes it is absolutely an indiginous American artform created within the black and hispanic communities of NYC. But as for the cultural phenomenon of hip-hop being brought to the masses through the distribution of the music, that basically started with Def Jam which was a white/black collabo. So Rick Rubin certainly brings a "legitimization" to the point of whites being involved with the movement since its origins.

It's all really neither here nor there at this point, but for anyone to say Eminem has "ripped off" black people is just flat out retarded. I guess I shouldn't play any pentatonic blues licks on my guitar then, or else I'm ripping off the black community too? Please...art is for everybody, regardless of "who started it".

[b0unce]

amen brother, hallelujah!

[stale bread]

look

the easiest way to prove that we are all equal is the chemical brothers.

they make ill grooves that people thought were only possible by black musicians... the countless times ive heard white men cant groove, but the chemical brothers.. those guys got the groove.

with their block rocking beats they are the key to breaking down the racial barriers that society laps up from media and the powers that be.

The Chemical Brothers for president of the New World Order!

who did the chemical brothers sample to groove like that?


on another note... this thread hurts.

there are alot of detractors here,

for all of you who really don't get it, jahguide is saying ... acknowledge the contribution in full.
he's not saying don't rap unless you're black, he's not saying don't make money from hiphop unless you are black.
he's saying.. do you know how many people love eminem, atmosphere, anticon and defjux (not can-o/mr.lif) to death but don't like any black rappers at all?...... the answer is far too many for that kind of math to add up.
it's not unlike the millions who buy nsync/backstreetboys albums for their children, but would never buy their children new edition or boys to men albums.

my advice to everyone is this, unity among all people is the priority, we can never go back and right the wrongs that have been done, surround yourself with people in the here and now that understand what real unity is and don't let the snakes derail you from that path... do not become the monster
together we stand, divided we fall.

[Tone Deft]

As it's been said "good artsists copy, great artists steal."
African American music is 98.6% funkier than European/Asian music, obviously more sampled.
The only thing wrong with stealing music is getting caught, being a dumbass like Vanilla Ice who's famous for ripping of a couple of Brits.

What about De La Soul ripping off The Turtles?!?!?!?!

[steve-o]

The OP frames the issue in a misleading way, basically saying that if you can't come up with a specific example, then the idea of white people musically stealing from blacks is somehow undermined.

no, I didnt say or phrase anything in a misleading way. Be a little more specific, with quotes please. I never said 'if you cant X then Y must be so' or anything close to it. I merely took adonis statement as fact, and asked for details off you, him, anyone who cares to share...because I was at a loss for those facts. Besides, the real OP is adonis - I merely started the discussion he wants to have before addressing timbaland's "minor indescretion" ...Ya, I guess its a minor indescretion compared to the slave-trade.....but its pretty weak to play the race card in the timbaland discussion.

Then OP attempts to distinguish between stealing a song and stealing an entire form or style of music, with the latter somehow being somewhat less significant. All this, based on the characterization that DJAdonis statement somehow amounts to a racist statement.

I dont believe you can steal a 'form' of music, I dont care who plays irish-trad music, I dont care who plays reggae....its plagiarism I detest, and only plagiarism. Shit like 'you stole hip-hop from black people' is exactly the kind of narrow-minded garbage I'm against. I dont deny who started it. Big ups the black community. But shutting your doors on any other participants is stupid, and using it as a crutch to justify out-right plagiarism/theft is even more stupid. Yes it is less significant that Vanilla Ice rapped, and was white. Yes its totally more significant to rob someones composition, note for note.

On one hand, OP's statments are valid. It may be hard to think of specific acts of theft - but then again its kind of hard to think of any specific acts about a topic one is not well versed in, and I'm going to assume that few people are actually well educated on this topic, with the exception of blacks. And there is a difference between stealing a song and stealing a style - but maybe the difference is negligble, or even worse since stealing a song does not de facto amount to denying the black community their cultural heritage (the difference is that stealing a song is like stealing property, while stealing a style is kind of difficult since musical styles are considered public domain; but property laws in the states were developed to serve the interest of one group only - rich, white men). So, while being valid, the OP's original statements are valid in so far as they reflect the prevaling, dominant social norm, a norm which has always and continues to harm the balck community.

what are MY original statements, old bean ?
noisetonepause covered this already, as for 'owning' a style of music...what about the musical structure they use? and the instruments too ? arent they stealing from...french people ? No. dont be ridiculous. No one has tried to deny the origins of musical genres here, its merely about what rich white folks ripped off what black folks - adonis statement, not mine. and if it amounts to anything more than white folks rapping & white folks singing the blues ?. .....if thats the behaviour that adonis [and you?] think justifies timbaland blatantly ripping off another artist, note for note - waveform for waveform, just because the dude is white....well...uh...fuck that, eh ?

Your orginal statements are on page one of this thread. You may review them if you wish.

You asked for an indictment. When one was not forthcoming, you them said that Adonis wants to talk about racism before talking about whether what Timbaland did is wrong. I don't think that's what adonis meant. I think he made an observation, and a valid one at that.

Your viewpoint that you cannot steal a form of music merely reflects the bias towards personal property against cultural creations that is part of the dominating paradigm. As a consequence of that, black and other races can't be compensated for their creations. Remember, b0ounce, that black people have been oppressed for a long time, and for them and many others, their cultural or indigenous creations is all they were allowed to have. They play with the cards stacked against them. While whites for the most part, have many more advantages. So, if all you were allowed for most of your re-written history (the civil rights revolution is very recent, and still blacks face many forms of prejudice, as I articulated in another post of mine) was you cultural heritage, I can very well understand how the black community can look at the white community and claim that hip-hop was stolen. And again, you frame the issue incorrectly: the problem isn't shutting doors to participants. Its about acknowledgment. And by denyihg the black communities perspective as you do, by down playing their acknowledgement "big-ups"), and enforcing the property regime which supports the status quo, as you do, you are being the narrow-minded one, not me or others that share this view.

In reference to your last paragraph, you continue to frame the issue incorrectly. I don't think adonis or anybody is trying to say that Timbaland is justified (unless they consider his actions "sampling" and not "stealing") - I answered this in my previous post. The point is that everybody makes a big deal about Timbaland and downplays everything else. Assuming you are not black, YOU may think that its weak to play the race card - but YOUR community is not specifically targeted by law enforcement, YOUR community does not disproportionately fill jail cells in the United States, YOUR community is not the only community in the Western Nations who contintue to be decimated by the AIDS virus.

[steve-o]

pah!
merely taking adonis' hot potatoe, and putting it on a plate with some butter and a dash of pepper.

Besides, I want to see if there's something valid to his comments. First, the whiteman has been ripping off the black man since the dawn of music...then its in the last 100 years.

Regarding the dawn of music bit, I wont make any assumptions ? Dunno...fill me in on what the fuck he's talking about, please, anyone.

Regarding the last 100 years bit, well...this could yield something worthwhile, and I genuinely want to know who he's referring to

Here is one pile of feces

[b0unce]

because the finnish dude timbaland ripped off was white, adonis doesnt give a shit.

he's perpetuating racism. boo.