Harmonic mixing

[bobtfb]

what is this?
I've heard a lot about it and I definately want to make my tunes sound good when mixed together..
HELP?

[hambone1]

The search engine is your friend!

Try harmonic AND mixing.

[vinkalmann]

The search engine is your friend!

Try harmonic AND mixing.

^^ True.

Read the pages here:

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/overview ... history.mv (my favorite page)
www.mixedinkey.com
www.rapidshare.com

Be forewarned though, lots of people get all bent out of shape when people start talking about harmonic mixing

[Affiliation]

like if you play C and G on your keyboard simultaneously it sounds in harmony. If you play C and G flat is doesn't; thats basically it.

[mingusman]

I was trained as an acoustic musician rather than starting on electronics, and the concept of harmonic mixing is something one that I thought would already have been part of what DJs do...guess not.

It would seem totally logical to me to play one song in C and then the next in F, like an authentic cadence, or do a plagal or deceptive or whatever... the same way that classical composers have written different symphony or suite movements in large-scale relative ways for centuries. Perhaps I take that kind of training or consideration for granted.

I understand that many electronic musicians often approach music from a different angle than those trained on traditional instruments, but not having a good grasp on even basic music theory is not healthy if you ask me.

If DJs were considering this aspect more, then think of the kind of juxtapositions that could happen...from simple satisfying movement over a set from i - V - I (yay, picardy 3rd in final mvt!) all the way to polytonal-pandiatonic cacophony. Actually the latter has happened quite frequently (think Public Enemy or DJ Shadow) but I'm pretty sure that those artists discovered a happy accident rather than being deliberate about their work.

Just some rambling thoughts...

[hambone1]

You're using words with more than two syllables... do ya expect a DJ to understand?

[mingusman]

what i meant to say was...

i likes me some harmony, DJs should like them some harmony too. Yay!


seriously though i hope i don't sound like a pretentious prick. i appreciate the approach that electronic musicians take, focusing on manipulation of timbre and rhythm. after all, that's why I'm trying to learn this whole new world of Ableton. however, i do have a deep appreciation of harmony and theoretical awareness and feel that - as the saying goes - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

...and the only music i know that causes immediate death is listening to kenny g.

[vinkalmann]

what i meant to say was...

i likes me some harmony, DJs should like them some harmony too. Yay!


seriously though i hope i don't sound like a pretentious prick. i appreciate the approach that electronic musicians take, focusing on manipulation of timbre and rhythm. after all, that's why I'm trying to learn this whole new world of Ableton. however, i do have a deep appreciation of harmony and theoretical awareness and feel that - as the saying goes - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

...and the only music i know that causes immediate death is listening to kenny g.

You don't sound pretentious. I know I am going to look up
"from simple satisfying movement over a set from i - V - I (yay, picardy 3rd in final mvt!) all the way to polytonal-pandiatonic cacophony."

I've been harmonic mixing for a while and have been wondering what to do next. I mix in and out of many keys taking things up and down, but it will be cool to try a structured progression. Any sites to recommend?

[snakedogman]

well I don't think that this is any kind of "new" concept to dj's. Of course when mixing tracks you're trying to find those tracks that "fit well together". When both tracks you're mixing have some melodic content on the end and front it will be pretty obvious when you're mixing the two whether they go together harmonically or not, if you have at least a basic musical hearing (if not then you're probably better off picking another hobby/profession). You don't need any kind of music theory knowledge to be able to do this (although it helps to be able to understand why it works).
I don't think I've ever hear a mix album that had glaringly obvious clashing of harmonics between tracks, so I think it's safe to say that most professional dj's at least take harmonics into consideration already.

I do think it's something that a lot of people who aren't dj's don't think about though. They tend to not realise that dj-ing is not just about beatmatching two records, but also (and probably much more so) about finding the right records to play in the right order. One is simply a technique that anyone can learn, the other is about creativity and musicality that will put a good dj apart from a bad one.

[mingusman]

vinkalmann-

hmm...don't know any sites offhand but i'm sure if you do a google search on "tonal harmony" you'll find plenty to work with. i'd recommend an academic site over others...because while "bob's guitar chord shack" might have some easy answers, they're invariably exactly that - easy answers.

i learned all this in school or through books, one that i remember being pretty thorough is:

tonal harmony - kostka/payne

...it's a pretty standard textbook for college courses.


and snakedogman is completely on about using your ears - after all, that's what music is about! so if you do pursue a more intricate knowledge of theory, be sure that you accompany it with ear training. theory serves to help identify what you already hear so you can expand; without aural recognition theory is useless.


as far as i-V-I progession in a set, what I'm referring to is that during a DJ set, it could be fun to plot out a progression over a series of songs. Make your first track in c minor, then the second track in G major, and then the third in C major for a happy uplift at the end!! OK that's a little dorky (for those who are familiar with what I'm talking about) but it's an example of how classical composers would plot out large works that contained multiple movements.

[vinkalmann]

as far as i-V-I progession in a set, what I'm referring to is that during a DJ set, it could be fun to plot out a progression over a series of songs. Make your first track in c minor, then the second track in G major, and then the third in C major for a happy uplift at the end!! OK that's a little dorky (for those who are familiar with what I'm talking about) but it's an example of how classical composers would plot out large works that contained multiple movements.

There is SOME, information on the net about harmonic mixing. What the pages are lacking is things to do with it. There is generally only the most basic theory that says what should mix with what. What you posted above is what I'm looking for at the moment, so thanks!

In terms of the "use your ears" bit (not directed at you Mingus). I'm tired of hearing that EVERY time there is ANY discussion of harmonic mixing. People need to get over themselves. The vast majority of people on this board can say whether a mix is out of key or not, it's not a rare talent around here at all.

[snakedogman]

The vast majority of people on this board can say whether a mix is out of key or not, it's not a rare talent around here at all.

exactly. I'd imagine anyone producing or dj-ing already has this skill, otherwise there would simply be no point (unless you're making/mixing totally unharmonic experimental music ) so I find it a bit weird that's it's sort of made out to be this elusive "thing" that dj's need to learn.

[Patch]

All that "use your ears" crap is bullshit. I've been DJ'ing for years - and until I discovered Harmonic Mixing, any harmonius (?!) mixes were just a happy coincedence. Often a song would just pop into my head as I was picking my next track - but using the camelot scale opens up a whole other dimension.

Some people are too lazy to learn a new technique - and when I hear noobs saying "a good DJ does it all by ear" - it makes my f#*kin' blood boil!

Take the time to learn Harmonic Mixing - it pays dividends!!!

(And thanks for the input, mingusman - I really appreciate it!)

[jaffadj]

All that "use your ears" crap is bullshit. I've been DJ'ing for years - and until I discovered Harmonic Mixing, any harmonius (?!) mixes were just a happy coincedence.

A bit harsh, Patch... I've been DJing for years too and, like you, at first I didn't know anything about music theory (having never been trained as a musician), so I used to try a mix and it either "didn't work" or "worked". So yeah it was trial and error but i wouldn't say it was an accident, it's just that as a DJ then I was making full sets by experimentation rather than theory. Then I came across the harmonic mixing thing, and the whole theory behind it, and the camelot wheel that makes it simple to guess in advance if the mix is gonna be harmonic or not

But I guess theres nothing wrong with DJ having no musical training, and just "using their ear" to work out whether a mix will work or not. In fact, I'd advise people not to rely solely on the theory before doing a mix. The harmony is not the only parameter here. For a start, tracks will behave differently when you mix them at a different speed they were originally recorded at. Some tracks will drop down half a key when played out at over 3% less of their original speed but for some other tracks, it's not so obvious and very often you hit the 'nomansland zone' as to whether a track plays out at a given key or half a key below or above hen you change its speed by + or - 3%. So you have to try it out first and see if it works.

Also some tracks are at the same key in theory but they don't necessarily mix well, I mean the mix is technically good but doesn't quite reflect where you want your set to go, so I wouldn't say to just rely on the harmonic theory before doing a mix