A Live "No Latency Band"... is it possible?

pasaba · Post by **pasaba** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:11 pm

My project is very ambitious. Or is it?
A live band, through 1 pc and 1 interfase.
The pc has got all the processing elements we need for effects and such. The interfase would do the routing/ preamplification/ etc etc... just imagine changing song presets for a whole band with one click... pretty amazing huh?

Now, the question is...IS IT POSSIBLE?
if so, What hardware is adecuate for this project?

posssu · Post by **posssu** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 pm

I think it sounds great.

The only problem is (as you might guess) is the latency. This will be an issue especially with the guitarist and bass player, since they will notice the latency immediately so you have to make it something about 6ms the most which is tolerable, but it should be even less if possible.

You will need an audio interface which has multiple outputs so you can give them all a monitor independetly and they can hear their processed signal. You will also need lots of cpu for the effects processing to make it almost-real-time. And an audio interface you can trust!

Good luck with your project!

pasaba · Post by **pasaba** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:58 am

Thanx for the reply posssu!
I realize latency is the main issue... on other terms most modern day i/o card-interfases can handle the routing.
I was ready to buy a motu ultralite, An amazing card, but It became a problem because of the expected latency issues I was told about, I still cannot believe how some people prefer plastic toys such as maudio's equivalents over motu's acclaimed ultralite. As a completely versatile product, this is the only issue that concerns me, latency... this is a topic that has been explored, I know... but people have been able to process a near zero latency sound on guitar-processing before (thus vocals and/or bass should not be an issue). Therefore, leaving the latency issue semi-aside, considering an obtained "one i/o <real> sound", the fact that a whole band was to be processed would depend solely on the i/o capacity and computer specs. Is this not so?

And does the motu ultralite have latency issues? I really hope not 'cuse it sounds really great from the various reviews I have read... If it does have important latency issues; what a-likes are recommended that would solve this problem, concerning my <live> effect processing urge?

lunabass · Post by **lunabass** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:19 am

i've done this before years ago with all the audio (bass guitar, synths, vocoder and percussion) running through my Digi001 card using Pro Tools on my old G4350 mac. Latency never felt like an issue with it on the lowest setting for the guys playing the instruments. Personally I think it's fine with even 11ms of latency.
I know another guy who uses Pro Tools on stage for is vocal chain...compression etc

The one thing I dont like about this approach is if the PC/Mac crashes you're left with absolutely no audio...except the accoustic stuff, drums etc.

Of course this can happen if the mixing console malfunctions but how often does that ever happen?

I guess the biggest chance for a crash is when changing multiple presets on god knows how many plug-ins.

I think you should go for it. it's a great way to pull different sound but make sure you do loads of testing before hitting the stage

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:21 am

I agree that 11 ms latency is usually acceptable, unless you're guitarist is playing like shedding thrash metal licks at a million notes per minute, then it may become a bit noticeable. I prefer 6 ms (in and 6 ms out total = 12 ms) 256 samples as my max when using guitars and 128 samples is better still.

If you're using external effects and recording, or have miced up and amp etc, the direct monitoring solves a lot of problems with latency. This is not a good option though if you're recording direct without fx or amps and wanting to use a daws internal fx as it bypasses those and anyone who has plugged a guitar into their soundcard and played it dry knows it sounds pretty weak !

husker · Post by **husker** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:01 am

If you invested in a decent Creamware/Sonicore DSP setup, you could do this with ease...with less than 1 ms latency and 100% reliability...

And there is some fantastic effects and amp sims available too...

dh187 · Post by **dh187** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:56 am

check out the apogee symphony system. 1.6ms of latency analog to analog, desktop or laptop (with express card input). keep in mind that plugins add latency. also note that a firewire bus has a minimum amount of latency that is always added to the latency reflected in Live's preferences. I can't remember exactly what the number is, but it is significant. My point is that yes you can do this, but if you can afford it, I would stay away from firewire and use PCI, PCMCIA, or express card if possible. Another solution would be to firewire I/O, but run your effects off some external DSP thing like what Universal Audio makes (the UAD?). I play in a band that does something close to what you are talking about and I can assure you that if you really want to be able to lock in tightly with everyone else, latency will be a huge issue. Also a lot of firewire gear has unstable drivers, especially those that rely on Apple Core Audio firewire driver (which is almost all of them, Apple does improve this problem regularly with firewire audio driver updates), meaning the actual latency has some variation each time you turn on the computer. In general I would say MOTU is very good with regard to its driver implementation; it uses proprietary drivers. Firewire is also heavy on the CPU. Good luck.

husker · Post by **husker** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:35 am

that's the beauty of Creamware DSP, built in audio interface...so there is no ASIO latency involved at all. Into the card - all the DSP effects and routing you could want - out of the card. Sample by sample processing. <1ms start to finish.

cressy · Post by **cressy** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:22 pm

Those Creamware cards look pretty sweet, but the shop I looked in didn't have a firewire option, and I use a laptop. There were a couple of PowerCore firewire options - does anyone know if these are as good? Also, whats the latency like going from a DSP card into live, cos I don't know if I could ever forsake my beloved NI guitar rig.

fwiw of the many configurations my band's had over the last couple of years, it was often the case that I'd be playing guitar through a multi-fx pedal (no way i could use guitar-rig live on my old laptop), into a Firewire soundcard and through ableton, while having a bunch of loops going on, along side a bassist going through a regular amp and an electric-kit drummer routed straight through the PA.

I had a latency of about 16ms and it definately wasn't an issue. Sounding semi-competent was alot harder,

pasaba · Post by **pasaba** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:46 am

hey guys, thanx for the replys...
well, apogee would be amazing, but it´s a little out of my league...
creamware seems really nice I guess we'd have to get it with the expansion though, hope plugging in and plugging out the pci card constantly from my pc to the bands mac we'll use wont be an issue.
The other thing is, ok... zero latency with dsp pluggins... only with the ones it comes with or also others such as amplitube 2 or guitar rig 2?
Im really fond of these ... specially amplitube. If not, what would the expected latency be for creamware and amplitube or guitar rig?

Also, I guess because minimizing latency is an important factor, its definitively pci...
so what other options do I have besides the creamware in the pci world that give me what i need for a "live no latency" set?

thanx again guys...
Pablo

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:26 am

The creamware card may not induce anything more than a ms latency but firewire will, and is often not declared to the main host. Expect at least 2-4 ms latency there. Ditto USB cards. You will not notice 10 ms latency (including in, out and routing through PCI, cardbus, firewire or USB etc). People have been known to get 1.7 ms latency from an RME card with their new firmware.

There's no such thing as zero latency, latency free is effectively 10ms or less in total and that can be achieved quite easily so long as you have a powerful computer setup by any number of cards. The key is being able to run at 64 samples or 128 samples wherever possible on a 44.1 Khz frequency for ultra low latency. Even hardware synths evoke a 3-4ms latency from when you press the key to audio being triggered...

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:36 am

form memory firewire has a fixed latency of 16 samples (it might be as much as 64 though... been a while since i read about that) before any system latency

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:50 am

Clearscreen wrote:form memory firewire has a fixed latency of 16 samples (it might be as much as 64 though... been a while since i read about that) before any system latency

16 samples at 48k samples/second =

16 samples/(48,000 samples/second) = 0.3mS

0.15mS at 96kHz sample rate

0.075mS at 192KHz sample rate

pasaba · Post by **pasaba** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:05 pm

I am almost convinced on creamware but there are some things to consider
1)aside from zero on the dsp pluggins, what would the latency be on vsti's for instance? Would it be noticeable?
2)I also intend to use a midi keyboard, since some as the home 4.5 do not have midi in/out how would I be able to take advantage of the dsp synths from the keys? also how would it be with reason? will the card fix the current obvious latency I have on reason 3?

Thanx again

funkdefino · Post by **funkdefino** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:33 pm

I think your begging for trouble. Get a digital console as to allow instant recall... if you need tons of additional effects and you want to go with a computer based solution... the scope is your best choice for next to zero latency.

Take a look at Mackie's TT24 and using effects from Scope.

I see bands week in and week out at my venue and have had hands on with every digital board out there, (digico, digidesign, yamaha, mackie, etc) and even seen a few guys attempt what you are looking to do. All I can say is... we are not there yet. At least not reliably!!!