The price of hackers

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:11 pm

Man, I've bought a copy of every version since 1.0 (all boxed except 4). Plus Sampler and Operator. It's a lot of money now that I think about it - and I really only used the features of Live 1 / 1.5, then Live 3, then 4, then 6. 2 and 5 were complete wastes of money.

While Operator and Sampler are over-priced, I am 100% satisfied with their performance. I am glad that I have them, and anything I could do in FM-7 I can do in Operator... Sampler's fantastically simple compared to Halion or the other monstrosities out there, and comparing Ableton's customer service to Native Instruments' or Steinberg's shows a distinct contrast.

Overall I'm satisfied with Live 6, and to be honest, Live 7 would need to have something pretty wiz-bang under the hood to entice me to buy it. I can't think of any features I need (they've even addressed my groove template whining with their master / slave clips for tempo).

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:26 pm

I'mon the same page as smutek and nebulae

I was hesitant to upgrade to 6 (even with my student discount) because I wanted to perhaps through Sampler in there

but Sampler doesnt do somethings I'd like it to

multiple outs, import rex <-- my main 2

maybe I'm just lazy and don't want to fill out the form they sent me for the edu discount

but I do want to take advantage of the dual core thing since I have a duocore processor

I really want sampler but it doesn't do anything I want it to

I don't know...everytime I spend money on something stupid I'm always like - I could've upgraded

but I buy a lot of music

ewistrand · Post by **ewistrand** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:34 pm

M. Bréqs wrote: I am glad that I have them, and anything I could do in FM-7 I can do in Operator...

?

How do you figure? Operator's a 4-op synth, while FM7/8 are 6-op (or actually 8-op if you consider the external in and the filter as operators). There's a lot of FM patches I make where four operators just won't cut it...

ew

jasper · Post by **jasper** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:03 pm

ScholarlyGent wrote:It's well worth the money and I'm happy to support a company that makes such smart products.

. Live is great and you get what you pay for .
You know as well as I do that Sampler should absolutely be included with
this music composition tool and it hella shouldn't cost $200

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:14 pm

ewistrand wrote:
M. Bréqs wrote: I am glad that I have them, and anything I could do in FM-7 I can do in Operator...
?

How do you figure? Operator's a 4-op synth, while FM7/8 are 6-op (or actually 8-op if you consider the external in and the filter as operators). There's a lot of FM patches I make where four operators just won't cut it...
ew

I think he means that for his needs he can do with Operator what he normally would do with FM7..

No way Operator can do what FM7 can..

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:55 am

ewistrand wrote:
M. Bréqs wrote: I am glad that I have them, and anything I could do in FM-7 I can do in Operator...
?

How do you figure? Operator's a 4-op synth, while FM7/8 are 6-op (or actually 8-op if you consider the external in and the filter as operators). There's a lot of FM patches I make where four operators just won't cut it...

ew

By using racks and assigning specific sounds and duties to instances of Operator you sure can create very well blended sounds. Of course I cannot say that by having a rack with two Operators you reach 8-op but if you dismantle the sound you have in mind you can come close. You cannot reach a complex 8 operators structure this way, is more like having a parallel 4 Operator structure. However, programming a 8-op structure might become very difficult.

- Best
- Pasha

Silicon/Silicium · Post by **Silicon/Silicium** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:48 am

Simple stupid point:
-Fruity producer XL thing: a bad sequencer (not bad, but really counter intuitive for me), an excellent fm synth, a pretty good sampler, a decent and well integrated slicer, some other cool stuff. 360$...
compared to Live, you get the plug ins for free, and you can even use sytrus or directwave as vsti (sytrus only is 179$!), lifetime free upgrade. So for customer, it's a no surprise deal.
Buy Live, you simply got an excellent sequencer (and the only live dedicated one), some cool audio effects, two minors samplers. You have to pay each year to be up to date, have to pay for the instruments and contents (moreover you have to pay for updating live just for updating the instruments!!).
From a customer point of view, choice is easy. eg I won't recommend to buy Live to any students I teach. far too expensive (and finaly, limited) choice.
EVERY other sequencer or daw is bundled with instruments.

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:54 am

what would be cool is if they allowed audio in/through sampler

then all of sampler's functions could be applied to the signal AND the input could be used as an operator

of course input would be cool in operator too

Silicon/Silicium · Post by **Silicon/Silicium** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:56 am

oh and I almost hate racks: navigating inside racks is a pain, it's sooo easy to edit the wrong rack, and what a pain (especially visually) to have 3 impulses in a rack just because you need some phaser on hihat (and be able of saving, so not routing to differents audio tracks). Racks are powerfull, but their intuitivity sucks hard. I m used to have modular environments in energyXT, it's soooo easier to deal with...
And racks as a workaround

...

edit, another bad point: samplers in live (simpler and sampler) doesn't stretch at all, the even stretch less than an audio clip!!

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:24 pm

Silicon/Silicium wrote: (moreover you have to pay for updating live just for updating the instruments!!)

ya.

the apologists will be like "hey, I like having choice" ...but where's the choice in being forced to upgrade live to upgrade your 'extra' instrument ? its either a part of the package or not ? if its an extra, you shouldnt be forced to upgrade the host for the instruments update....yes/no/maybe ?

fuck the ceo, or whoever makes these decisions. fuck him hard with a pointy stick.

mission1 · Post by **mission1** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:37 pm

Price isn't the reason people hack. It is because they can. They like to prove how smart they are and how they can pull off the heist. It is all about promoting their little hacker street creds, it makes them feel like they are important. It is pissing contest.

Hackers, might help out the poor musician who can't afford anything, but they sabotage the whole. Every time I launch an app protected by Pace, every hard drive on my system (6 hard drives) all spin up, I have to wait for them, sometimes 20 seconds. This is because of copy protection. I wonder how many concerts didn't go off as planed when the copy protection decided to do an auth check and something failed.

I've seen shareware apps that cost $20 with kracks.

Always buy what you use. It is just good karma.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:30 am

I agree with pasha and bounce here. Live is a great program, but to keep up to date with it is getting to be like NI, where every year they hit you with new versions of a few of the synths etc. in Komplete, and you're stuck making that choice as to whether to update or not. I'm almost glad that Logic hasn't been updated in 4 years, it's let me check out Digital Performer again, and pay for Live updates.
I don't own Operator or Sampler, and with Komplete, it would be redundant, if they were included in the package like Logic does, I would probably use them, but I don't see the point in relying on one DAW. I've made that mistake before, and sat there banging my head against some bug that killed my personal workflow.....

That said, count me in as a person that hopes Live becomes capable of matching Logic's ability to edit MIDI compositions and workflow. There's entirely too much mousing in Live, period.

Silicon/Silicium · Post by **Silicon/Silicium** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:01 am

Price isn't the reason people hack. It is because they can.

True, but price can be the reason why they finally choose to support or not the software. Everyone can have a cracked version, the deal is to make them realize that supporting ableton is a fair deal, and that abes deserve their money.