wahhhhhhh, i want my MPC back :(

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Post Reply
The Mysterious Flying Pum
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:28 am
Location: Nice - France

Post by The Mysterious Flying Pum » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:12 pm

rikhyray wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:
rikhyray wrote:
I think MPC vs. Live is a childlish idea, it is about using what does the job the best for particular task and the user. Might be Live, MPC or none of them.
100% agree.
I use Live for techno/electronic stuff with a friend + other arrangements and I really like Live's flexibility and ease of use.
On the other side, I am doing kind of instrumental hip-hop stuff on my MPC that works great in that context.
I don't see the point of comparing MPC vs. Live.
13" MacBook - 1Gb RAM/OSX10.4 - Live 6

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey

Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:16 pm

rikhyray wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:
rikhyray wrote: MPC is not eight world wonder, neither the best invention ever. Everybody in sane mind and with some experience in music knows what it does well and about its limit too. It does not sound better, is no match to modern softwares at all, yet there are some things it does better then anything else, and some other you cannot emulate or do with anything else.

were you particularly set off by the swing comment? because IMO, he's correct to say that it's not a big deal. There's nothing *that* special about the swing setting on the MPC.



What is special about it, as lot's of people have recognized here, is the workflow. Especially the ability to juggle sequences on the fly using a combination of the mute tracks page and "next sequence." Or perhaps how fast you can build up a sequence by overdubbing and moving to new tracks...


And frankly, you *can* get live to behave in a similar way, it just won't do it out of the box. You have to think about it and set it up specifically with you controllers to make it into the instrument you want it to be....


.lm.
Not a big deal but same time,yes, it is. There were many tries but none works. I am not particularly crazy about simple implementing Akai swing anyway, but even that is not available in any other hardware or software form. If someone is interested in this subject Google is there.
What is definitely more interesting is using this Akai function real time, shifting resolutions and other parameters etc while playing, this would be difficult, highly impractical if at all possible with other soft or hard ware.
It is all your fault LM, somehow you infected me with idea that, incorrect, inconsiderate or silly statements should be dealt with, so such forum can be of use.
What is the point of 7 pages thread when half are written by people who never actually used soft or hardware in question and just share their own ignorance, or worse write something senseless, with no use to anyone. I guess most of people have padKontrol or similar and it is no replacement for MPC, Battery or similar VST with high quality sounds cannot be replaced by MPC, and no other way round.

I think MPC vs. Live is a childlish idea, it is about using what does the job the best for particular task and the user. Might be Live, MPC or none of them.
What might be definitely useful is collecting, exchanging experience, where and what works the best.
Doing things live, just like a musician does is the unquestionably advantage of box like MPC. Specially great for DJs and people who have limited instrumental skills or none. MPC can become their instrument. The sound, not at all high quality, works well for certain genres since Akai sound is part of the genre, that includes its punch ,swing or whatever.
P.S. I didnt buy the MPC because of swing, neither thought much about it, but must say it was interesting surprise, this shit really works and is wicked. Saves me lots of time, discovered setting that works excellent for Bhangra.



yeah, i performed live with an mpc as the nerve center of my setup for, oh, 5 or 6 years. I loved it. The only thing i found that did a better job of being a flexible live sequencer was, well, live.

I still love the mpc, but only have it for nostalgia. Everything that i used it for in my shows or in the studio can be done just as well, and IMO better, with live.

just a note about "real time changing of parameters" that you mention. I can change way more parameters in real time with live than i ever could with the MPC.

I'm not trying to pit the mpc against live, i too agree that they are two different things. But i have used both for the same applications, and for what i do, live is superior.

And i was just confused as to why you snapped on the guy who said that the swing function could be emulated with just about anything else. I agree with that guy, there is nothing *that* special about the mpc swing.



.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

sbyrd
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:20 pm

Post by sbyrd » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:18 pm

tjwett wrote:
dango wrote:
tjwett wrote:when i had my 1000 i wrote about 10 complete songs on it, in just a few months. on the computer i've never really completed a track, in like 7 or 8 years. i have about 400 eight bar ideas that never get finished. i'm more productive on hardware. i def miss my MPC.
for the record, the sound of either has absolutely nothing to do with it for me. i guess you'd call it more of a "workflow" issue. i liked the MPC OS, i liked having limitations, i liked the lack of distraction. when on the MPC you can't just go and check email and surf porn whenever.
dead on. 2 really good posts.

this is also why we have so much garbage music out now. too much time spent making that really cool vinyl click sound nice and crispy and not enough time spent on making the song good.

ableton live is the most inspiring software ever. which is why i ditched logic,cubase, protools all that crap. but it will never be as inspiring as an MPC...my opinion....

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:35 pm

I guess this aspect is not that much of your interest/focus LM, but since I come from musical culture where tension/release that in European/Western music achieves through harmony, we use rhythm and microtonic embellishments for the same. Not unlike in sex, more subtle the touch, more intensity. The MPC deviation is so subtle that hardly visible, yet hearable. There are endless discussions among artists, also tracable on internet about that Akai swing. Couple of companies and individuals tried do implement it in various ways in software form but with no much success. If there was I would buy it and probably replace MPC with RS 7000 which is much better sequencer and is the best for programming beats/rhythm live.Not only you have visual reference but unique only to this unit option of changing resolutions on the fly while sequencer plays. It is more precise/accurate then MPC not to mention acceptable editing.
I personally bet that this inaccuracy- the 96 resolution (which is kind of quantize by default) combined with Roger L`s algorithm are the secret. Similarly like the sound/punch coming from deficiency then from design. This being reason why the attempts to emulate it fail, it is a combination of soft and hardware here that somehow works. Not unlike the miserable bass guitar replacement, that made stellar career used entirely different way that it was designed for- the tb 303.
The biggest disadvantage of MPC is the the gap to software widens, MPC stays in the same place while software develops dramatically so MPC stays more and more behind.
Being used to modern ways of editing with computer, MPC is a drag so the secret to make the best out of it and not to be hindered is to find ways of using it only for what cannot be achieved with modern tools.

steve-o
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: LA

Post by steve-o » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:03 pm

b0unce wrote:ad/da
+1

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey

Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:10 pm

rihky- don't presume to know about my focus or musicianship. I get really pissy when you pull that "i'm a better musician/engineer/whatever than you" shit with me. You do it on the regular with people here and i'm not feeling it. At any rate, surely you understand that the mpc will *never* have the feel of a real drummer or percussionist, and that said percussionist will laugh at the swing function of the mpc. Let em tap on the pads and they might dig it, or they might not like how their feel is translated when it's forced to 96PPQ.


.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

steve-o
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: LA

Post by steve-o » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:29 pm

rikhyray wrote:I guess this aspect is not that much of your interest/focus LM, but since I come from musical culture where tension/release that in European/Western music achieves through harmony, we use rhythm and microtonic embellishments for the same. Not unlike in sex, more subtle the touch, more intensity. The MPC deviation is so subtle that hardly visible, yet hearable. There are endless discussions among artists, also tracable on internet about that Akai swing. Couple of companies and individuals tried do implement it in various ways in software form but with no much success. If there was I would buy it and probably replace MPC with RS 7000 which is much better sequencer and is the best for programming beats/rhythm live.Not only you have visual reference but unique only to this unit option of changing resolutions on the fly while sequencer plays. It is more precise/accurate then MPC not to mention acceptable editing.
I personally bet that this inaccuracy- the 96 resolution (which is kind of quantize by default) combined with Roger L`s algorithm are the secret. Similarly like the sound/punch coming from deficiency then from design. This being reason why the attempts to emulate it fail, it is a combination of soft and hardware here that somehow works. Not unlike the miserable bass guitar replacement, that made stellar career used entirely different way that it was designed for- the tb 303.
The biggest disadvantage of MPC is the the gap to software widens, MPC stays in the same place while software develops dramatically so MPC stays more and more behind.
Being used to modern ways of editing with computer, MPC is a drag so the secret to make the best out of it and not to be hindered is to find ways of using it only for what cannot be achieved with modern tools.
I'm very much hooked on GURU for my sampling/drum needs. I like the swing that it has, as well as the MPC 3000 and 2000xl grooves available for it. Have you tried GURU? Still many little bugs though.

I too had an MPC 1000 and sold it, and I thought that it's sound was better. Then I listened to my friends Apogee/PT rig, and am saving for an Apogee now. But I agree with your last satemetn - using the MPC in ways unachievable with modern tools.

evernaut
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:55 am
Location: Jorvik
Contact:

Post by evernaut » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:40 pm

Am I missing something here? What's wrong with getting a good pad controller, hooking it up to Live and doing some choice midi-mapping?

The MPC is great, no question, but all it is ultimately is a box with some pads on it and some software. The rest is just you and your ideas.

franknputer
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:20 pm

Post by franknputer » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:46 pm

I'd like to see a real comparison done - the two MP3s that were posted are useless for any kind of comparison. Just out of curiosity I opened them both in Audition - here's what I saw:

Live track:

Image

MPC track:

Image

Sound different? No shit... 8O

kb420
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Cydonia on the 4th Planet

Post by kb420 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:49 pm

I've owned a MPC 3000 for years now. The Mpc, like most hardware samplers, does have it own sound "color" for lack of a better description, but I don't know if that would equate to what I would call "punch". A friend of mine recently brought a cd over to my home studio full of beats that he recorded from his MPC 2000 directly into a 8 track digital recorder. I then opened them up and played them through Sound Forge using my mlan drivers and playing them through my studio monitors. If anything, I found his cd (which is unmastered of course) lacked the punch that I am getting out of software.

Why?

Because now when I start making a song, once I get 4 of 5 tracks going, I patch an instance of Ozone 3 to my master bus and start eq'ing and maximizing it right away. That way I can adjust the mix a little better, and have a better idea of what the final mastered song will sound like.

Here is another reason that I did that. My Motif Es7 is my sound card. I noticed that when I use soft synths, the Motif Es's sounds always seemed to have more punch. At first I thought it was just because the Motif sounds are already inside the Motif, and because my soft synths had to come from the computer, that they lost punch, and that the computer would never have the same amount of punch. Then I realized that almost all of the Motif's sounds are by default running through at least 2 effects + chorus and reverb, and in pattern mode, the entire mix is also routed through 2 mastering effects. All in all, that's a total of 6 effects being applied to each voice.

The perceived "punch" that MPC has, is probably no more than a built in, un-tweakable, loudness maximizer, and even if that isn't the case, that so-called "pucnch" can easily be achieved in Live.

Just patch your favorite loudness maximizer, or mastering plugin to you Master Bus.

I suggest Ozone 3, or PSP Vintage Warmer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

kb420
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Cydonia on the 4th Planet

Post by kb420 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:52 pm

Hey franknputer, that really shows the difference in volume. The Live track has much better dynamics, while the MPC track seems to have been maximized to the point of "clipping". I'm not a fan of brickwall limiting, and this usually the kind of thing that engineers go nuts over.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

Johnisfaster
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:34 am
Contact:

Post by Johnisfaster » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:56 pm

franknputer wrote:I'd like to see a real comparison done - the two MP3s that were posted are useless for any kind of comparison. Just out of curiosity I opened them both in Audition - here's what I saw:

Live track:

Image

MPC track:

Image

Sound different? No shit... 8O
so obviously he's just using 2 VERY different recording techniques. I'd like someone to do this:

take some samples and arrangethem using simpler in a simple pattern. then load the same sample in your mpc using the same midi. then lets record the output of the 2 (live, and the mpc) so that we can phase test them. if anyone performs this test please be very careful to keep volume levels the same so that we can truely see if there are phase differences.

anyone?
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:15 pm

I am not underestimating your skills or abilities, I am pretty sure you know much more then myslef about lots of matters,specially on the technical side. It relates to my focus, abilities. We are not all knowing, and in this case my focus/experience/education is more on rhythmical side and melody (linear) but not harmony for example
It is unintentional if it comes as arrogant or putting someone else down, it is simply education and training, which in this case meant enormous amount of time(meaning months not even weeks) of playing simple scales at slow tempos only to achieve tonal and rhythmic accuracy. Nothing of a genius, more like training a dog. Except that it was to train not mechanical skill, coordination but also ability to hear, differentiate. The principle being first grasping mentaly, means being able to grasp in the mind then say (rhythm) and sing(melody) followed by doing it on an instrument. No playing music, melody, nothing , no fun, enjoyment only boring exercises. Since you live in the Masters house no chance to play something that reminds of music, or he comes yelling at you, and disobeying might mean no dinner.
So if I know anything a bit is the tone, intonation and sense of time, even that is more achievement of my teachers then my unworthy lazy self.

MPC swing is not used cause it is better then a drummer or percussionist but for exactly precise accurate mechanical flow which is the interesting as a counterpoint to realtime more flexible, live playing.
Building rhythmical compositions, the tensions can only work in reference to something steady, in classical Indian music it would be Talam, basic beat kept by clapping or with cymbal, in Afro Cuban music Clave and Campana.
Drum machine replaces that steady element, beat keeper, giving the precise quantized base. The rest of poly, cross rhythms will build the tensions and their release in reference to that steady in precise beat. Without that base the whole thing goes astray. So building multilayered rhythmic structures there must be fine balance between "off" and "on". Here the modern technology comes handy, adding new element to "iron" too aggresively, standing out elements or introducing new one to make it easier on the listener or whatever the objective of composer might be.
Here comes certain advantage of hardware sequencer- the precison, accuracy ( over computers) tightness and the extra bonus of MPC swing doing a bit of contrary,"relaxing it" The very special thing here has similarity with Jamaican drummers something I call inconsistent consistent or consistent inconsistent. Irregularity that is in predictable art regular, though not obvious on the first sight.
I use MPC to build basic rhythmical base of a song. There will be mixture of live playing by a drummer or percussionist, MPC pads or electronic traps and some programmed parts and then the swing function can be used for experimenting, setting serious rhythm tracks also using the swing functionality, applying the idea mentioned above.

OK the video rendering,reason of my leghty exposition is over, got to go back to work.......

tamtam
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Post by tamtam » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:56 pm

sherlock wrote:Sound different? No shit... 8O
Waveforms look different zoomed to 1 1/2 minutes than zoomed to 10+ minutes?
Congratulaions, you solved the case!

kb420
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Cydonia on the 4th Planet

Post by kb420 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:07 pm

tamtam wrote:
sherlock wrote:Sound different? No shit... 8O
Waveforms look different zoomed to 1 1/2 minutes than zoomed to 10+ minutes?
Congratulaions, you solved the case!
Not quite. The time zoom doesn't make a difference. The db meter is all that matters. If you take a look, the Live mp3 has some clipping above 0 db's, but most of the Mpc mp3 is above 0 db's.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

Post Reply