OT: Michael Moore's Sicko

[kramerica]

I am curious to see it myself. Moore totally misrepresented Canadian firearms laws in Bowling for Columbine. I'm curious to see the rosy picture he paints for our health care, which pretty much every canadian thinks is a complete mess.

This sums it up pretty well.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/hl856.cfm

In Canada, where cost is a prime consideration, diagnostic tests are executed for only the most common ailments fitting a patient's symptoms (it saves money). Because of the government mandated rates, labs are slow to process this, so that you submit a test for condition X, then wait for the result. If negative, but symptoms / signs persist, then test for condition Y; repeat ad nauseam. By the time you diagnose condition Z, the patient is beyond the treatable stage and is now terminal.

This isn't just hyperbole; My mom's best friend died as a result of Canadian health care diagnostic procedures.

In a privately insured, system, or a system where you have the OPTION to choose supplemental private insurance, they'll conduct a battery of tests.

I still think that our system is superior to what exists in the US, but it isn't "good" by any stretch of the imagination, and Moore tends to exadgerate and lie to further his own agenda.

Breqs:

I wanted to see your opinion as (a) a conservative and (b) a Canadian. It is interesting that you dislike your system but choose it over the US alternative (if it can even be called that).

I read that Friedman article (God rest his soul), and it blew my mind - he actually seemed to (a) say that the socialized health care systems of Europe and Canada were better than the current US system, though not desirable compared to his alternative proposed and (b) he proposed universal catastrophic health insurance for all!

For those that know Friedman, the greatest libertarian, neo-classical economist of our time (with the exception of perhaps Hayek - the destroyer of Keynesian economics), to hear him endorse that should serve as a "shock and awe" to the right wing opponents of "Hillary-care" or whatever alternative is proposed by the left. It sounds like no matter what we do, it can't be worse than what we have.

Thanks for the read and stay safe breauxseff.

[nathannn]

i also watched this movie last night. one part that is stuck in my mind is when moore is talking to an old man in england. moore was asking him what would happen if the government took away health care and the man said something like " the people wouldn't have it . there would be a revolution "
this is what we need here. we need a REVOLUTION NOW. im hoping after more people see this that there will be a revolution. our government is not working for us. they have filled heads with shit in order to fatten there wallets long enough we need to end this.

[kramerica]

i also watched this movie last night. one part that is stuck in my mind is when moore is talking to an old man in england. moore was asking him what would happen if the government took away health care and the man said something like " the people wouldn't have it . there would be a revolution "
this is what we need here. we need a REVOLUTION NOW. im hoping after more people see this that there will be a revolution. our government is not working for us. they have filled heads with shit in order to fatten there wallets long enough we need to end this.

C'mon man. A bloody revolution isn't necessary in Europe or N. America and would be counterproductive (and immoral). We have the institutions set in place for an amazing civilization and it took hundreds of years of blood and political evolution to get where we are. I'm gonna stick with the democratic process, albeit flawed, and the rule of law.

Now with regard to that Old Labour Brit, I actually didn't agree with his point there. Just because the masses want something (popular polls), doesn't mean they're right in demanding it or that it would even work. The masses wanted Soviet communism and boy were they mistaken. It just took millions of people shipped to Siberia, disappeared or summarily executed and 70 some years later to even begin to remedy that mistake.

.02

[nathannn]

i also watched this movie last night. one part that is stuck in my mind is when moore is talking to an old man in england. moore was asking him what would happen if the government took away health care and the man said something like " the people wouldn't have it . there would be a revolution "
this is what we need here. we need a REVOLUTION NOW. im hoping after more people see this that there will be a revolution. our government is not working for us. they have filled heads with shit in order to fatten there wallets long enough we need to end this.

C'mon man. A bloody revolution isn't necessary in Europe or N. America and would be counterproductive (and immoral). We have the institutions set in place for an amazing civilization and it took hundreds of years of blood and political evolution to get where we are. I'm gonna stick with the democratic process, albeit flawed, and the rule of law.

Now with regard to that Old Labour Brit, I actually didn't agree with his point there. Just because the masses want something (popular polls), doesn't mean they're right in demanding it or that it would even work. The masses wanted Soviet communism and boy were they mistaken. It just took millions of people shipped to Siberia, disappeared or summarily executed and 70 some years later to even begin to remedy that mistake.

.02

at the very least, we need to make our government fear us instead of us fearing them. the democratic process is not working here. its the same pool of business men every election. im tired of voting for the lesser evil.

[eyeknow]

I'm sure some of mr "less"es ideas are not bad ones, but it's so obvious that he's in all this for him own megalomanic reasons.

All the clues are around us, what to do, what not to do, how to act, and most of the time, the facts....they are right there.

He's no different than the 98% that don't do the right thing.....but he's sure good at pointing the finger.

[Tone Deft]

I'm sure some of mr "less"es ideas are not bad ones, but it's so obvious that he's in all this for him own megalomanic reasons.

All the clues are around us, what to do, what not to do, how to act, and most of the time, the facts....they are right there.

He's no different than the 98% that don't do the right thing.....but he's sure good at pointing the finger.

it's funny reading conservatives rant on MM, not a leg to stand on.

1. You're finger pointing. Hypocrite.
2. MM IS doing something about it, you're ranting about it on a music forum
3. Yeah, it's all about MM's megalomaniac reasons, that's weak. I'm sure he's not doing it to expose a scandal that we all know is going on. Weak argument, that's just shallow name calling.
4. IMO you're not doing the right thing by bashing his movie before seeing it and showing a fellow citizen some support when he's fighting to protect YOUR rights and your family members who are taking it up the ass when it comes to medications.


And all you asshole neo-cons who can't keep politics out this need to get your fucking heads examined, please do so in the US so they have to remove the money rectally.


FFS all of you are arguing about this SHIT before the movie even comes out. I can't wait for the same people to rant on the same sides of the same argument after the movie comes out.

Cool, I haven't done a political rant in a while, I feel unclean.

eyeknow - I'm just playing the game, no offense.

[djadonis206]

Ok, we are here with Paul Wilmot

Ok, we are here with Paul Wilmot

Just say something controversial into the camera

[chrysalis33rpm]

I think tax payments should have a little section on them so you can say what proportion of your money goes to what activities. You fill in whatever takes your fancy.

x subsidizing strip clubs for the disabled - %20
x pedestrianization of city centers - %50
x weird architecture - %25
x basic mathematical education - %10

whatever your income, I think the idea that your money goes to activities you don't agree with is the issue that gets most people riled up.

I specialise in ill-thought-out policies. It seems no bar to a career in government.

word.

[M. Bréqs]

i dont even care what this thread is about... im now just disappointed at your choice of a signature mbreqs.

didnt think you were the type to try to add to the propaganda.

...point taken, though I don't consider myself adding to propaganda... The fellows showcased in my new sig do it quite well themselves.

I guess I'm just critical of an expansionist, dogmatic ideology founded by a mass murderer. Funny that.

[eyeknow]

I'm sure some of mr "less"es ideas are not bad ones, but it's so obvious that he's in all this for him own megalomanic reasons.

All the clues are around us, what to do, what not to do, how to act, and most of the time, the facts....they are right there.

He's no different than the 98% that don't do the right thing.....but he's sure good at pointing the finger.

it's funny reading conservatives rant on MM, not a leg to stand on.

1. You're finger pointing. Hypocrite.
2. MM IS doing something about it, you're ranting about it on a music forum
3. Yeah, it's all about MM's megalomaniac reasons, that's weak. I'm sure he's not doing it to expose a scandal that we all know is going on. Weak argument, that's just shallow name calling.
4. IMO you're not doing the right thing by bashing his movie before seeing it and showing a fellow citizen some support when he's fighting to protect YOUR rights and your family members who are taking it up the ass when it comes to medications.


And all you asshole neo-cons who can't keep politics out this need to get your fucking heads examined, please do so in the US so they have to remove the money rectally.


FFS all of you are arguing about this SHIT before the movie even comes out. I can't wait for the same people to rant on the same sides of the same argument after the movie comes out.

Cool, I haven't done a political rant in a while, I feel unclean.

eyeknow - I'm just playing the game, no offense.

a. I'm not a conservative......I'm slightly (think 2 to 3 on you pan dial) to the right of center. I have and will vote democrat if there is something relevant to the candidate.

b. Mr less has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's in all this for the money. His "facts" can be argued both ways depending on the point of view, but then again, he's just taking the "popular" side. Frankly, I could care less about mr less, but what I don't like are CON ARTISTS.

c. When someone is "liberal" or "conservative" these points are irrelevant.....people will defend their party to the death and that's the way it is. It's like smoking, those who do are generally addicted......they want to claim "smokers rights" which is what every cancer/lawsuit victim used to be.

[eyeknow]

and another thing, though I will NEVER see sicko, I've seen pretty much everything else mr less has made, (including allot of shit from before anyone knew who he was) so I feel fairly qualified to make a point.....as opposed to the ones slurping all over him for one stupid movie.

[Tone Deft]

and another thing, though I will NEVER see sicko, I've seen pretty much everything else mr less has made, (including allot of shit from before anyone knew who he was) so I feel fairly qualified to make a point.....as opposed to the ones slurping all over him for one stupid movie.

Dude, there's nothing wrong between you and Michael Moore that a few bong hits couldn't cure.

[eyeknow]

and another thing, though I will NEVER see sicko, I've seen pretty much everything else mr less has made, (including allot of shit from before anyone knew who he was) so I feel fairly qualified to make a point.....as opposed to the ones slurping all over him for one stupid movie.

Dude, there's nothing wrong between you and Michael Moore that a few bong hits couldn't cure.

except that pot is illegal in this country, and I'm not big on breaking the law anymore.

besides, how many people do you think die from illegal operations? Kinda hard to say since it's not "on the books" but I'll bet allot of pain and suffering goes into getting people those illegal substances.

[Wishbone]

May I ask what school you went to? Could it possibly be the University of What The Fuck? Are you an intern at Fox News? Are you related to Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reiley? Are you even in college yet? Are you just confused? Seems you have not understood my comments because I wrote the answers/examples to all your posts after my comments.

A top 50 school.

But, I saw your comments, I included them in my retort, and did not misquote you or misrepresent your views in any way. For example, you said its a complicated issue. I said it was not. I gave a reasonable and logical argument of why the answer is quite clear. Therefore, your comments on whether I am confused are rather unjustified.

I am not saying there isn't waste in the military or the iraq war, I know that there is, its the government, and there is always going to be waste. No way to get around that. Thats my argument. And one can make the argument of whether to spend money on Iraq, thats something else, that goes beyond economics because you simply aren't looking for the best and efficient way to produce a good, you have a greater concern of national security.

However, if you concentrate on the industries that the government controls, they are all doing miserably.

Usually the liberal argument is that to go with the free market is to hurt the poor. However, if you look at our public school system, its more segregated, both racially and economically then it would under school vouchers. This has been proven my taking figures from places that do have vouchers like Milwaukee, and then comparing it to the normal public schools. If you look at social security it is also racially biased against blacks. Their average life span is lower than a white persons, yet they work for approximately the same amount of years. So they don't get as much money when the retire, because on average they die earlier. But instead of letting them do what they want with their money, we have to let the govt. choose for them.

You cannot paint me as a person that disregards the poor. If its anyone its you guys accusing me of that. I want to give these people the choice to spend their money where they want, save it how they want, and send their kids to school where they want. Why do you guys think they shouldn't have that choice?

More like top 50 of the last 50 possible. At least not last ok. You still don't get the big picture. If poor, choose to spend what money? The banks money so they will be in debt forever paying ridiculous interest rates? Doing that with schools will just seperate things even more. (segregation to the fullest) The future will open your eyes. Maybe you are really trying to understand things and have the best intentions for poor people, but you need a lot more knowledge. Saying you are from a top 50 school proves even more how bad education is since you are suppose to have good common sense. I guess if you were rich, the way you think would be common sense for you but you said you're not. (look at it this way, you think like MOST of the rich! : )

I will leave it at that.

you are absolutely wrong on all counts. This was hilariously poor. First of all that was the dumbest joke ever, good job on that one. Also they will get loans based on the interest rate and their risk, they still have money, and if you want them to have more of it, let a flat tax happen, where more money is pumped into the economy and less into government waste. Why do you think that all these economies like Irelands, and the UAE's boom after they impose a flat tax?

You are absolutely wrong about segregation with vouchers, it has been imperially studied and proven that it reduces segregation.

You know absolutely nothing about economics. You have no idea what you are talking about. See you have the common sense problem. You see "oh tax the rich, and it will have no consequences". But it does you are the one that needs to study.

Perhaps its your blatant ignorance that made you forget. but I will ask again.

How come you dont want to give the poor the right to send their child to whatever school they want, and not force them into a inefficent district school. How come you want to force them to pay social security instead of letting them do what they want with it. How come you want the schools to be segregated?

[mrweasel]

When someone is "liberal" or "conservative" these points are irrelevant.....people will defend their party to the death and that's the way it is. It's like smoking, those who do are generally addicted

So when you're a conservative, it's like being a smoker, you know it's stupid, but you just can't help going for it until you die?

Classic

This thread so craics me up