MIDI delay recording

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:29 pm

This is obviously causing a lot of confusion. The way I see it is that Live has midi problems in three areas:

1. Unusual and unpredictable Rewire latency

2. midi data throughput is delayed by the soundcard latency

3. midi is recorded as you hear it and not as you play it.

This thread is mostly about the third one, but the other two problems show themselves up as a midi delay too and cause confusion.

I think what I would like is for Live to behave like other sequencers. This means:

Rewire inputs should not be affected by PDC compensation of other VSTi being used by Live.

Midi should be routed out to the midi ports as fast as the computer will allow.

Midi should be recorded as we play it on our controllers without any workarounds with double channels. By all means put an option in for those who use their ears only though.

Whilst, I understand that this may not be implemented in Live 6, I would surely like to see in Live 7.

drb · Post by **drb** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:46 pm

Synthbuilder wrote: 2. midi data throughput is delayed by the soundcard latency

BUT if you have a VST and hardware synth, if you dont delay the midi to the midi synth, it will be out of time with the slowww VSt, don't you agree?

I run into that now and am having a hard time calulatiing how much delay to put on the hardware synths, to have them right in time with the slower VSTs.

I wish there was some software that would analyze two signals in real time, and tell you which was dragging.

docjah · Post by **docjah** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:05 pm

Hi,

OK , here's the part I don't get.

I record MIDI into live , monitor on playing on 1,2,3,4 etc.

When I look at the Midi Data , it looks to be off the marks ( different than other DAW's I've worked with) , but supposedly plays correctly.

I open up another MIDI channel , same synth , monitor on.

Now , I assume that the notes in the first channel sound just like they would in the second channel.

This implies to me that I'd need to draw in the notes in the "wrong" spots in channel two to get the to be in-time?

Am I confused here , or can somebody point out the flaw in my thinking?

Thanks,

Dave

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:35 am

drb wrote: BUT if you have a VST and hardware synth, if you dont delay the midi to the midi synth, it will be out of time with the slowww VSt, don't you agree?

Sorry but I wasn't talking about playback. I think Live's midi playback if fine [for a PC that is. Being used to an Atari and hardware sequencers I'm rather used to a faster response].

Anyway, I was talking about real time midi throughput. That is, play your midi controller, send it to a sound module via Live and the sound is delayed by the soundcard's settings. So for those of use who record the audio by playing it in live, with Live also acting as a midi router we get an additional delay where there shouldn't be one.

iain.morland · Post by **iain.morland** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:27 pm

docjah: The notes play back where they were recorded (as Synthbuilder says).

But where the notes were recorded is delayed by the sound card's latency. They weren't recorded where you played them, but rather where you heard them.

If you want to record them where you played them, you have to turn monitoring off! So you can't hear what you're recording at all!

Strange isn't it? I could go on but that would take us back over many of the other posts in this thread.

I'm afraid that I'm now starting to look into other hosts, because it doesn't seem likely that Ableton will change this behaviour anytime soon.

I'm gutted about this because in other respects Live is so good.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:06 pm

iain.morland wrote:
I'm afraid that I'm now starting to look into other hosts, because it doesn't seem likely that Ableton will change this behaviour anytime soon.

Yeah me too. Fortunately for Ableton, I haven't found anything as stable, easy to use and fun to use.

Reaper shows the most promise so far, but for now I'm sticking with Live 6.

Its the rewire problem that hurts me the most though. Especially now that Reason 4 is almost here.

drb · Post by **drb** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:44 pm

I'm a little confused by some of this thread.

If I send external MIDI to a VST, and then the same to a hardware synth, the VST seems slow and the h/w synths not slow. I intentionally have to add some delay to the hardware synth to get it to play in the same time.

One of the claims is that MIDI is passed thru with some delay added that is equal to the soundcard latency. In tests, I don't see this happening, so are my tests flawed, or do I misunderstand?

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:44 am

drb wrote:I'm a little confused by some of this thread.

You're not the only one. The idea of musician orientated latency compensation is very different from other hosts and sequencers. Which is probably why a lot of folk don't like it.

drb wrote:
If I send external MIDI to a VST, and then the same to a hardware synth, the VST seems slow and the h/w synths not slow.

Its a relative thing. The midi to an external midi synth is delayed, but probably not as much as the VSTi.

I'm pretty sure that external midi is delayed by the soundcard's latency that is displayed in your set up options. However, if this is less than 6mS then the chances are that you won't hear it.

Try this if your synth has a keyboard. Switch on 'local on' on your midi keyboard. Then route its midi output to Live and, using the channel strip in Live, then back out to the keyboard. This way Live and the keyboard will control the keyboard's sound engine. Use a quick plucky percussive sound. Hit a key.

If you hear a phasey type of sound this is fine. The delay between the two midi pathways is short. If you hear two distinct sounds, then this is a problem. Live has added an amount of 'latency' to that midi data. Whether you can deal with this is a personal thing. But the delay you hear is controlled by the soundcard settings. I don't know of any other host that delays midi in this way.

iain.morland · Post by **iain.morland** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:59 am

I think the difference that drb is describing is simply between the time it takes for a vst to generate a sound (defined by ASIO buffer) and the time it takes an external synth to make a sound (which is of course faster because not processed by the computer).

The main problem described in this thread is that the recording of MIDI for a VST is ALSO delayed by the ASIO buffer. ...even though MIDI data DOESN'T actually go via ASIO, of course.

I don't have external synths so am not sure whether or how this bears on recording MIDI for them, sorry.

p.s.: I'm still keen for Amaury to respond to my comments in this post because it differs from earlier points he'd made about how musicians perform. I'm uncertain that Ableton really grasps why this issue is bothering people and hope my explanation helped...

citrik · Post by **citrik** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:28 pm

Hi Amaury and all,

Any update on if this will be fixed soon? I was really hoping that I might find a fix for this in 6.0.8. It's such a frustrating bug and it really kills my energy, on the rare occasions that I have to make music.

I always wonder why I find working on music so frustrating and today is a grand example. I started grooving out on a simple track I built up with my external hardware synths. I got to a point where I really liked what I had and wanted to record it into my main live set. I started recording the parts in and everything comes out delayed... It's making me loony.

I've been trying to record with monitoring off but it seems to resume the "latency over thinking super compensation timing destructor mode" if I switch the track back to auto and back to off. It seems that I have to stop the clock on my sequencer to reset everything and start the clock back up with the record track in off mode. Does that sound right?

Thanks

Citrik

iain.morland · Post by **iain.morland** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:39 pm

This is the solution I've found to this issue.

Project 5! I'm also interested in Bidule for more complex routing/sound design.

So it's with relief and pleasure that I'm unsubscribing from this thread and will no longer worry about this MIDI delay issue.

I am very sorry to be moving away from Live because of its many excellent features - really I have a lot of praise for it in other aspects - but i am sick of the endless circular discussions and lack of action on this key MIDI issue.

IMO there seem to be two little games going on: one is 'can we persuade Amaury that some people would want MIDI recorded where it's played?' and the other is 'can we get an option added to Live to change this behaviour?'. I fear that even if Live users manage to explain it to Amaury (who is, after all, perfectly entitled to his own MIDI recording preferences!), it won't actually get changed in Live... at least not for months and with a paid upgrade.

*sigh* To think of all the music I could have made while I was busy reading and posting in this thread, and fiddling around in Live testing the timing and trying to synchronise MIDI tracks....

BYE!

chis · Post by **chis** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:51 am

Oh bugger... I have much more hardware now (I heart Waldorf

) and having tested this out... well this is very disappointing. And Ableton still haven't fixed it!

I'm now seriously considering purchasing Project 5, having tried a demo. Possibly looking into Reaper as well. I'm really quite disappointed with this "feature" of Live now I have discovered it. If it doesn't get fixed for Live 7 (or even Live 6 would be nice!

), I shall have to jump ship.

Edit: Okay melodrama aside, I'm currently VERY glad I have Live 5 to fall back on.

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:40 pm

OMG! I can't freaking believe this! I was part of the original 10 page thread almost 2 years ago.

With Alex, It's was fixed! And everything is still great in Live 5 since then. I'm still on 5.2.2. Now what? It looks like I'm going to be using Live 5 for awhile now. I bought the 6 upgrade but theres NO WAY, I'm not unlocking it now in this state.

This is ridiculous! Can't Amaury just talk to Alex and get it sorted?! It's a serious problem so the big shots at Ableton really aught to be pushing some buttons there and stepping around the middle men. Why another year of rehashing, relearning, and refixing a problem that was already fixed! How many users have to explain, and how many times must the explanation be repeated for a fix to be ordered? It's kind of madness....

popslut · Post by **popslut** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:14 am

Amaury wrote:I'd like to hear about other people, these who like to hear what is recorded, also.

So where are they?

So far Amaury, the only person who thinks Live's current monitoring/latency compensation "logic" is satisfactory is you.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:13 pm

Disclaimer: I can't really follow all the crap that has been posted on this thread, I find it very confusing.

But I do think that I prefer the record-what-you-hear approach, because I just can't help but respond to the sounds coming out of the speakers. I can't ignore what I'm hearing and just hit the keys "in time"

Also, I tried that "test" up there somewhere^^^

Indeed, the notes don't line up on the grid, but they didn't line up in either scenario - and they're a mixture of early, late, on time...