watch out Abes...Cakewalk Project5 new pricing = $99!

[woodie]

Hello!

Well, I said in the "MIDI delay recording" thread that I wouldn't be back on this forum, but I wound up here by following a link from the Project5 forum...and felt I should reply because I was being discussed in some of the posts! (fame at last!!)

I use Live 5.2.2. This version of Live, like all versions of Live 6 so far, delays the recording of MIDI by the latency of the soundcard. (Unless you turn monitoring off and so can't hear what you're playing) This is unlike any other DAW, as far as I can tell. You won't notice this if record quantise is switched on. (See for example this post and this post.)

If I remember rightly in the first release of Live 5, the MIDI was delayed even more, but that was corrected. However in my view it shouldn't be delayed at all.

Initially the MIDI bug deterred me from upgrading to Live 6. More recently I snapped and bought Project5. I have no more patience waiting for a bug fix - especially one that would probably require me to pay for a Live 6 upgrade.

I had been testing several other DAWs (including Reaper following that amazing SOS review), so the Project5 discount arrived at just the right time for me. Certainly, it doesn't do as much as Live, and the interface isn't as nice, but it suits me and my workflow (for instance, I don't play live shows).

As for Project5's engine, I have Audition for precise audio mixing. I'm aware of the discussions on the Project5 forums about the difference between Project5 and Sonar's 64 bit engine. After some further discussion at KVR, I decided that wasn't a deal-breaker for me. I'm not going to start speculating about the mysteries of summing (since that's been thrashed out both here and at KVR with no real resolution), but respect that for some people the 64 bit engine would be critical. 24 bit is fine for me.

Finally, what was the most important factor in my decision to switch to Project5? The user forum. There were few bug threads, and certainly none about MIDI delay. There were no compatibility problems with the vsts I use - at least as far as I could see. Now to be sure, some problems may emerge later. But the forum was a heartening sight after the pages of bugs reported here on the Live forums.

you get what you pay for...

come on.....for the price we all paid for the excellent GUI & Workflow - I'm sorry - it needs to be f^#@in' rock solid. I'm not a Reason user, but I have to give it to the Props that as rock solid as they made Reason - and compared to LIVE - they deserve a thumbs up for that and surely can justify the price against what LIVE is charging for. So...as something basic as MIDI....you don't always get what you paid for - esp. in the Software World.

I love LIVE, don't get me wrong.....but this is unacceptable esp. coupled with the lack of response by the Abes on a matter that is important to alot of people.

I thinks this one needs to go into the Un-Hall of Fame of Bugs:

"MIDI BUG causing latency" : Aug 2004 - May 2006
"MIDI delay recording" : Nov 2006 - current

Hmmm.....this is where I hope the competition gives them a run for the money.....literally, as I just think there needs to be a major wake up call on all fronts of LIVE.

What are all these people doing?? http://www.ableton.com/people

[Poster]

I love LIVE, don't get me wrong.....but this is unacceptable esp. coupled with the lack of response by the Abes on a matter that is important to alot of people.

What are all these people doing?? http://www.ableton.com/people

come on dude.. that one is below the belt..
now you're blindthrowing mud..
name 1 company that is more responsive and really listens to their userbase as Ableton?

[woodie]

I love LIVE, don't get me wrong.....but this is unacceptable esp. coupled with the lack of response by the Abes on a matter that is important to alot of people.

What are all these people doing?? http://www.ableton.com/people

come on dude.. that one is below the belt..
name 1 company that is more responsive and really listens to their userbase as Ableton?

below the belt.....below the belt!!??

So you obviously think charging $500 for LIVE and having a MIDI issue like this one that folks still today have a problem with and have been crying out about since 2004...is ACCEPTABLE!? Well....we obviously come from different planets, 'cause I surely don't think that's right.

responsive in the way of paid annual upgrades with whatever NEW features....yes, on average, I'd say they are responsive, but that's all subjective as some of us were less than impressed with the new features in Live6 and are still using Live5.22.

responsive to those folks that have been crying for a fix to this MIDI bug (which MIDI is by all means the foundation to write music with the exception of Audio)....NO, I'm not impressed.

Nevertheless all software is not perfect - I quite understand that - I program a little myself, but before going off and adding all the bells & whistles....they need to make sure the basics are rock solid esp. if they intend to charge that kind of money. If LIVE was priced at alot less than $500....I'm sure I wouldn't be bitching about it like this. Of course, I have my own thoughts on that and why each year the same bugs seem to show up in new versions, but new features are added and older version are put on the shelf never to be updated again; they are after all try to run a profitable business here.

I have plenty of names I could rattle off that I think respond better, Poster, but I'm not going to list those as that has nothing to do with THIS company, THIS piece of software.

[leisuremuffin]

lol. i can't even hear a 25ms delay.


.lm.

[forge]

I love LIVE, don't get me wrong.....but this is unacceptable esp. coupled with the lack of response by the Abes on a matter that is important to alot of people.

What are all these people doing?? http://www.ableton.com/people

come on dude.. that one is below the belt..
now you're blindthrowing mud..
name 1 company that is more responsive and really listens to their userbase as Ableton?

yeah there was no need for that

but what did Hambone call it? "behind the computer bravery?" - where people talk way more agressively online behind safe barriers

but I agree with some of his points - the pricing of Ableton is quite aggressive from a marketing point of view - they are fully intending on competing with Logic more than P5 - so they have to be able to take this kind of criticism

there are definitely things with Live that desperately need improving - and nobody understands this better than Ableton

but emagic had a while to build an empire and have Apple buy them up, so there is a difference in resources

[headquest]

Definitely some double standards here woodie... unless you really don't know about Cakewalk's RECENT track record with bugs? (seeing as they are the company you are holding up for comparisson...)

Sonar 6 was released as one of the biggest bug-fests ever. There are plenty of users on their forum who didn't upgrade specifically because of the bugs. Several in fact switched to different sequencers altogether (such as Reaper, which gained ground at just the right moment to get rich pickings at Cakes expense ).

But even before that Sonar was buggy. When I got S5 PE I was staggered by the VST automation bug, which it turned out had been complained about for absolutely ages before they fixed it.

Bottom line is, unfortunately, that most of these programmes have bugs at different times, and there are not always instant fixes. The Cakewalk/UAD incompatibility is just as good an example as this Ableton MIDI issue (which I didn't even particularly know about prior to this thread, even though I've been using Live more than anything else during the three years in question!!).

So please don't get personal towards the Ableton staff like that - yes, imho *that comment/link* was definitely below the belt.

[hoffman2k]

Way to go woodie. Quote the guy who pointed out he uses almost every app available on pc to achieve his goals, then me and close off with an ignorant statement like: "coupled with the lack of response by the Abes on a matter that is important to alot of people"

Its not because Ableton doesn't respond to individual posts, that it means they aren't aware of any issues that are widely noted.
If you know who to look for, you can see Abes here around the clock.

Look at all the fuzz you guys are making over a bug you know is there. Imagine if Ableton actually acknowledged the bug without being able to provide a fix.

In the end you're not really that interested in Project 5. And by threathening to switch, who are you kidding but yourself?
It all boils down to putting pressure on Ableton to give a sign of life...
And what a moment to pick for it. A 99$ app comes out, just around the period people are expecting a Live 7 announcement..
Perfect timing!

Cakewalk is seeing a little bump because of this. But this isn't denting Ableton at all.

And I love the support comparisons...
Try getting Roland to update a software flaw in their groovebox:

Step 1: Learn Japanese

Try M-audio to acknowledge their gear is dodgy:

Step 1: Stick yer finger up yer ....

Anyway, Ableton has about a 7/10 track record of fixing issues I've reported.
Your milage may vary, but i've literally reported hundreds of bugs. Lots of them still out there and most of them fixed.
Call me an optimist, but i'm sure they're pulling all resources to fix an issue like the above mentioned.

I've found that detailed bug reports are more effective then empty threaths...

[Poster]

So you obviously think charging $500 for LIVE and having a MIDI issue like this one that folks still today have a problem with and have been crying out about since 2004...is ACCEPTABLE!? Well....we obviously come from different planets, 'cause I surely don't think that's right.

TBH - I'm not clued in on "the bug"...which I guess has to do with MIDI Timings as "iain_morland" at KVR mentioned, which BTW - he's now claiming Ableton just lost him as a customer, so the major LIVE 6 bug must be pretty bad.

Does Live 5.22 suffer the same problem? I haven't noticed any MIDI problems myself.

seriously..
you're trying so hard to pinpoint it all down to this one supposed MIDI issue,
which appearently you don't even witness because you're on Live 5..

First upgrade to Live 6,
then start posting bugreports..
If it's not fixed within a 'reasonable' time frame,
then start complaining..

Please do not use other ppl's problems, if you don't have any yourself,
just for the sake of complaining..
Because that's how you're beginning to sound i.m.h.o.

[iain.morland]

Not to hijack this thread, but... is there an easy work-around for this problem, such as a MIDI-plugin to adjust the start time of the events in a given clip/track? Or a quick way to edit all said events destructively to compensate for the delay?

Workarounds include adding the soundcard latency as a negative value to the track delay of each MIDI track. But then MIDI editing remains tricky because when you look at the notes they are in a different place to where they play.

Another workaround is to record to a second track that has monitoring off, then move the recorded clip from that track onto the track you're monitoring. But then that gets messy if you want to do overdubs, punch-in recording etc.

Plus the delay varies depending on the ASIO buffer size. So if you change that you have to recalculate stuff. For the kind of music I make (where I'm not quantizing but performing more 'organically'), this is a fiasco.

See the "MIDI delay recording" thread for much more detailed discussion.

And in response to some of the points by other posters: yes of course there are bugs in every piece of software. I am sure there are bugs in Project5.

But the MIDI timing issue in Live is for me simply a deal-breaker: it's a fundamental facility that works differently in every other DAW...which is incidentally why I didn't notice it when demoing Live. It's not something I thought I needed to look for.

I can understand bugs caused by clashes with third party VSTs, etc, but the MIDI delay is by design. That's what makes it so maddening that an option to change the delay behaviour can't (apparently) be added.

As you will see from the very extensive (and tedious!) discussions in the "MIDI delay recording" thread, it's unclear if the Abes even realise that delaying MIDI recording is a problem. Hence my loss of patience hoping for a fix.

[woodie]

if any of you guys met me....you'd quickly find out that I'm as vocal in person as I'm on the forum; not sure if that's a "good thing", though. For the most part....I pretty much write my thoughts down as they come - I'm not writing a business letter.

Yes, bugs pop up all the time in any software - no software is "perfect" - the more people that use a piece of software - the more feedback you're going to get, but we're supposed to be dealing with the BMW of DAW's here - a different company from the rest...a different way of doing things...a better way....so it just irks me that while folks "shit" on the competition....things are going on here internally as well that are not as pretty as they seem to be.

Maybe I just sub-consciously think that all DAW's are over-priced and before they go and justify their pricing - they need to fix the core issues first before moving on.

The Bat! email program is a good example of an excellent piece of affordable software that took the same path as LIVE....new features in every version, but the same ole bugs were still there. They finally got their act together and with the latest version....are continually fixing the bugs without coming out with a major paid upgrade. Of course this all happened once folks raised their hands up and became vocal about it.

Anyway.....the bottom-line I've been trying to say is: the more competition, the better it is for everyone. If the core is broken - fix it before moving on...and that applies to ANY company. We all depend on software and it's a real bummer to spend that kind of money...only to be directly affected by a bug that hinders your ability to create what you want.

[Nod]

Look at all the fuzz you guys are making over a bug you know is there. Imagine if Ableton actually acknowledged the bug without being able to provide a fix.

Firstly they haven't acknowledged the issue as a bug but rather questioned why users find it to be a bug. Iain quite rightly suggested that the behaviour be made optional so that users unaware of the issue, or indeed the massive numbers who posted to the threads in question backing the behaviour (ie: none), could remain blissfully unaware. He hasn't received a response.

Call me an optimist, but i'm sure they're pulling all resources to fix an issue like the above mentioned.

Are they? If they don't regard it as an issue where is the guarantee that it is being fixed? Is this merely a feature request to be included around Live 9?

I've found that detailed bug reports are more effective then empty threaths...

The bug reports have, in several cases such as the threads mentioned, been very detailed. If a customer repeatedly purchases goods which do not prove to work as advertised for them then their prerogative to purchase other goods that do hardly constitutes a threat imho.

[Nod]

But the MIDI timing issue in Live is for me simply a deal-breaker: it's a fundamental facility that works differently in every other DAW...which is incidentally why I didn't notice it when demoing Live. It's not something I thought I needed to look for.

I can understand bugs caused by clashes with third party VSTs, etc, but the MIDI delay is by design. That's what makes it so maddening that an option to change the delay behaviour can't (apparently) be added.

As you will see from the very extensive (and tedious!) discussions in the "MIDI delay recording" thread, it's unclear if the Abes even realise that delaying MIDI recording is a problem. Hence my loss of patience hoping for a fix.

You beat me to it again Iain....+1 to all the above....

[hoffman2k]

Look at all the fuzz you guys are making over a bug you know is there. Imagine if Ableton actually acknowledged the bug without being able to provide a fix.

Firstly they haven't acknowledged the issue as a bug but rather questioned why users find it to be a bug. Iain quite rightly suggested that the behaviour be made optional so that users unaware of the issue, or indeed the massive numbers who posted to the threads in question backing the behaviour (ie: none), could remain blissfully unaware. He hasn't received a response.

Call me an optimist, but i'm sure they're pulling all resources to fix an issue like the above mentioned.

Are they? If they don't regard it as an issue where is the guarantee that it is being fixed? Is this merely a feature request to be included around Live 9?

I've found that detailed bug reports are more effective then empty threaths...

The bug reports have, in several cases such as the threads mentioned, been very detailed. If a customer repeatedly purchases goods which do not prove to work as advertised for them then their prerogative to purchase other goods that do hardly constitutes a threat imho.

I make a difference between Ableton's responses and Amaury's responses.
I need a translator and 3 notaries present before i decrypt his responses in that thread. He's sorting out some different bugs from the main bug in question and posting his own views combined with Abletons views. So its very confusing.

However, somebody quoted a mail from Ableton, where Ableton said to be working on it. But for the life of me, i can't find it.
It's a recent post and it was from a new user. And it linked to the 17 page thread.

While you're all making noise here... Its very silent in this beta thread, where you're much more likely to get heard by developers: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67180

[mbenigni]

Thanks for the info, Iain.

[Pasha]

I used MIDI since day one on Live and even if I was able to reproduce the MIDI Delay Recording stuff It hardly was a problem to me because I used quantize a lot. When I recorded a Piano solo using a VST (SampleTank) and then decided to have the sound changed by my module JV1010 which I considered better I had no issues... Maybe I was only lucky, but honestly for what I do Live supports me in any direction I want to move...
It might even been that I did not understand correctly....

- Best
- Pasha