yet another rant about time signature automation

[thelocalhost]

actually, in the unlikely scenerio he presents, you need to set quantize (global or just for the 15/16 clip) to a 16th note.

.lm.

Why is this unlikely?

and why do you think that what I am mentioning is overly complicated,or unrealistic?

Also, to get the 11/8 change from 4/4, you need the launch quantization set to 1/8, or 1/16. The 15/16 has to be set to 1/16.

[leisuremuffin]

yes, but 16th will work for the 11/8 sig.



please write me a song with 4/4 11/8 and 15/16.

That is why it's unlikely.




.lm.

[leisuremuffin]

fuck it, you don't have to even write it, name a piece of music with 15/16, 11/8 and 4/4 time signature.



.lm.

[thelocalhost]

yes, but 16th will work for the 11/8 sig.



please write me a song with 4/4 11/8 and 15/16.

That is why it's unlikely.

Do you listen to King Crimson, Soundgarden, or Tool? This is common. Tool's, Intolerance off of undertow is 13/16 to 4/4. The examples of many meter changes is common and the examples from these artists are countless.

I current song i am writing has alternating 5/8 to 9/16 measures (just cut a 1/16 from a 5/8 measure) with a 5/8 chorus. I have many songs that have a 7/8 to 4/4 with a 6/8 part in there too.

I don't understand why people think this is so outlandish.

[leisuremuffin]

for the fact that it's retarded to do just for the sake of doing it. I love king crimson, and i'm pretty positive that there isn't anything like 13/16 or 15/16 in their body of work. Not even in the post-red super wankery period. I can also assure you that king crimson did not have a piece of software that needed to do time signature change to write those pieces of music with oddball signature changes.



.lm.

[thelocalhost]

for the fact that it's retarded to do just for the sake of doing it. I love king crimson, and i'm pretty positive that there isn't anything like 13/16 or 15/16 in their body of work. Not even in the post-red super wankery period. I can also assure you that king crimson did not have a piece of software that needed to do time signature change to write those pieces of music with oddball signature changes.



.lm.

I give up. You win kiddo.

My requests are ridiculous and every song should at most have 1 meter change.

I'll email Meshuggah this updated information.

[snowtires]

because even if you don't change the tempo, warping STILL affects clips.

Still bullshit.




.lm.

apparently you either don't have very good ears or never record anything that involves acoustic elements (guitar/bass/voice), because if you DID, you would have no doubt noticed that warping still affects the sound, even at the proper tempo

[leisuremuffin]

cool, i'll email all of the people i know who enjoy meshuggah. oh wait, that's nobody.



look, i'm not opposed to having time signature changes in live. That's fine. In fact, it sounds like they're doing it. What i'm saying is that you're whining that you can't do pieces of music that aren't 4/4 or that have changes, or mixed meter *because* of live. I'm telling you that simply isn't true.


and also saying that some of that music is just silly in my opinon.




.lm.

[leisuremuffin]

because even if you don't change the tempo, warping STILL affects clips.

Still bullshit.




.lm.

apparently you either don't have very good ears or never record anything that involves acoustic elements (guitar/bass/voice), because if you DID, you would have no doubt noticed that warping still affects the sound, even at the proper tempo

bzzzzz, wrong, with the notable exception of complex mode.


.lm.

[snowtires]

Thanks for the reply, snowtires.

I can see your point about "tidiness" in the Arrangement view. I certainly don't see it as a show-stopper, but it is a valid complaint. And no matter how an apologist might try to spin it, the Arrangement view is a DAW.

I don't quite follow the issues about clips and session view, though. Maybe that's just a matter of my own ignorance re: warping etc, but in session view the metronome serves a single purpose - to impart tempo - and I'm never really thinking in terms of the (computer's) beat number or bar. There's simply no need. I mix time sigs freely in session view and never think twice about it, and have never had the slightest problem. Once printed to Arrangement view, I imagine my measure numbers are a mess, yeah. I tend to ignore them anyway since I never found them all that intuitive, even in 4/4. I just scrub through and fly by what I hear. I guess that's a little inefficient... then again, Live does have a marker set/recall system, doesn't it?

I just hope when Abe addresses this (and it sounds like they almost definitely will in v7) they don't muck things up with unnecessary complexity. IMO an "event list" sounds like a terrible idea (ugh, shades of Sonar) unless I can fully ignore it and see no change in functionality or performance. Maybe an optional property on a pop-up associated with an arrangement-view timeline marker, indicating time-sig, would suffice?

I've long advocated a scene property page like the clip property page to provide a proper home for scene tempo. Similarly, I guess there could be a field on a clip property tab for time sig. But again, outside the arrangement I barely understand what difference it would make.

see, i only ever use session view in a live setting and even then all i have are printed tracks (including my own printed click track). i work primarily in arrangment mode and use live as a daw, and that's where the time signature automation comes into play. i've had to do several scoring bits recently and have had to use protools and/or logic to do so, based solely on the fact that live can't automate time signature changes.

[snowtires]

Still bullshit.




.lm.

apparently you either don't have very good ears or never record anything that involves acoustic elements (guitar/bass/voice), because if you DID, you would have no doubt noticed that warping still affects the sound, even at the proper tempo

bzzzzz, wrong, with the notable exception of complex mode.


.lm.

so i guess it's bad ears, then

[leisuremuffin]

yeah, of course it is.

i'll prove it to you:


do not change the tempo at all during this excercise.

record a track with guitar, vocal, whatever you want.

now, make a copy of your clip and put it on another track.

turn warp off on one of the clips. leave it on on the other.

put a utility plug in on one of your tracks and flip the phase.




what is the result?




.lm.

[snowtires]

cool, i'll email all of the people i know who enjoy meshuggah. oh wait, that's nobody.



look, i'm not opposed to having time signature changes in live. That's fine. In fact, it sounds like they're doing it. What i'm saying is that you're whining that you can't do pieces of music that aren't 4/4 or that have changes, or mixed meter *because* of live. I'm telling you that simply isn't true.


and also saying that some of that music is just silly in my opinon.




.lm.

it's possible, but the workarounds that you have to do in live are what we're complaining about. there's absolutely no reason why the abes can't put time signature automation into live, we shouldn't have to change the meter of each individual clip and then put them back to back to back in arrangement mode. then you say, 'oh, what bar am i on? oh, that's right, i have to count each clip individually and add them up, because the master bar count at the top is wrong, since there are odd-timed clips in the piece.' for someone who has to write music to picture, this is totally unacceptable. if you understood how film scoring works, how it is notated and transcribed, how you keep track of time changes and tempo changes, you'd see what i'm talking about

[snowtires]

yeah, of course it is.

i'll prove it to you:


do not change the tempo at all during this excercise.

record a track with guitar, vocal, whatever you want.

now, make a copy of your clip and put it on another track.

turn warp off on one of the clips. leave it on on the other.

put a utility plug in on one of your tracks and flip the phase.




what is the result?




.lm.

how about this: have a vocalist you just recorded ask 'why does my voice sound all choppy like that?' to which you respond, 'you hear that, too?' then take the warping off and you both say, 'oh, yeah, that's much better.' or play guitar and hear that it stutters or feels digitally stretched, take off the warping and it sounds fine. i'm not the first person on this board to notice that warping still affects sounds, even at the native tempo, so don't pretend like i'm making it up. if you can't hear it then, like i said, bad ears.

[leisuremuffin]

nope, i don't unless the tempo is changed and i can assure you there is nothing wrong with my ears, kid. Try the experiment before you post another word about it.




.lm.