yet another rant about time signature automation

[gomi]

unless you need a metronome, who cares? did a lack of time signatures really prevent you from doing that project?

i didn't even start it. i listened to it once through before i was about to, heard the measure of 5/4 and went onto something else. i'm just amazed at how many people think that time signature automation is across the board unnecessary. perhaps your style of music doesn't cater itself to time signature or even tempo variation, but there are a lot of styles of music that do this constantly (not just prog rock, which i can't stand) and live makes this impossible to do easily

I'm just trying to be realistic. You didn't start so it wasn't Live that held you back it was you. Just sayin...

trust me, i play in a band, we have songs with time signature changes and we
like to be able to be flexible..

we should be able to assign the time signature on a scene per scene basis
if needed... so you can have a scene in 5/4.... we've tried the 1/4 quantization
and it's a lame work around, especially when you are playing live with a group
of people.. we have also experimented with the PER SCENE TEMPO automation
to try and "slow down a scene" to "sound like it's one beat longer" but
that just doesn't work either...


the world is not 4/4

[gomi]

Thinking about this, I think at Ableton HQ they have to ask themselves where to draw the line between a compositional tool and a live performance tool and where to spend the resources. Certainly if Live claimed to be a DAW time signatures are a must, I think this is a case where Live being a performance based tool is causing problems for those who want more of a DAW.

nathann - you have to practice this, when you listen to the radio count to the song. Google for some pages to help you. I'd post something but it'd be the same info I wrote for you last time. Maybe google for 'songs in 3/4' or 'songs in 4/4' etc. to find examples. It's not hard but it's not altogether easy to explain in text.

yah. all live music is in one time signature all the way through... ok..
got it...

[Tone Deft]

what i'm confused about with this statement is why i have to know everything about warping if i don't use it.

You're not getting me.

I don't care what you do or don't do with warp, I respect you for not using it much, I dig that you actually PLAY instruments and not arpeggiators, very cool.

I do care about people ranting and posting BAD information on the forum, especially with something like warp that's a unique feature to Live that's pretty misunderstood in the first place. I'm often wrong on shit I post but I don't rant on subjects I'm unsure of, there are some topics I only read about and never post on.


For everything you ever wanted to know about warp do some experiments. How does A compare to B?? Drop a utility plug-in onto B, invert its phase 180' and play A and B at the same time. Warped, unwarped, at tempo, above and below tempo.

[Dominik]

come on. go back to topic (please).

[gomi]

... but doing that would totally screw up the whole concept of warp markers.

No it would not.

I can make a 7/8 clip, but if it drop it into a 4/4 session, what happens to it?

[Tone Deft]

i didn't even start it. i listened to it once through before i was about to, heard the measure of 5/4 and went onto something else. i'm just amazed at how many people think that time signature automation is across the board unnecessary. perhaps your style of music doesn't cater itself to time signature or even tempo variation, but there are a lot of styles of music that do this constantly (not just prog rock, which i can't stand) and live makes this impossible to do easily

I'm just trying to be realistic. You didn't start so it wasn't Live that held you back it was you. Just sayin...

trust me, i play in a band, we have songs with time signature changes and we
like to be able to be flexible..

we should be able to assign the time signature on a scene per scene basis
if needed... so you can have a scene in 5/4.... we've tried the 1/4 quantization
and it's a lame work around, especially when you are playing live with a group
of people.. we have also experimented with the PER SCENE TEMPO automation
to try and "slow down a scene" to "sound like it's one beat longer" but
that just doesn't work either...


the world is not 4/4

At one extreme I'd say that your band could play in any time signature they want with a tape recorder and Live can emulate a tape recorder. So get on with it.

At the other extreme there's embedding time sigs into Live completely, all the way down to warp markers. A legit and proper time sig implementation into Live.

I get both sides of the argument already. People, please stop and read.

What I don't get is why all the f-ing whining. In life when you have a problem you can do one of two things.
1 - Fix the problem
2 - Accept that you can't fix the problem and move on.
If you refuse to fix the problem, stop your f-ing whining. People who are too lazy to apply any sort of workarounds are helpless children.

You can record and play whatever you want in Live, Live won't reflect all the details but it can be done.

FFS just use Reaper.

Most of the posts on the side for time sigs are arrogant attacks at "the world isn't 4/4" fuck off already, some of you are pro time sigs just so you can go on about how sophisticated your music supposedly is. Put yer dick away and get to the point.

[Tone Deft]

yah. all live music is in one time signature all the way through... ok..
got it...

Totally pointless post, you're just taking the time to be an arrogant prick. Is that the best you can do? Nothing real to add to the discussion?

[gomi]

At one extreme I'd say that your band could play in any time signature they want with a tape recorder and Live can emulate a tape recorder. So get on with it.

you misunderstand me.
i am not using live as a recorder, i am using it as a performance tool.
when we decide to play the b section (for example) and it's in 9/8 while
the rest of the sections are in 4/4... that is a big change..

sure i could drop 9/8 clips in to a 4/4 global session and set the thing to 1/8 notes..
but then i'd have to be BANG on with the rest of the band... no mistakes...
when switching back to 4/4.

If it is set to 1bar it will play the 9/8 in time, until I hit the next scene, which
will start up at the next bar of 4.... not at the next bar of 9/8...

do you get it?

I think we should be able to assign the time signature on a scene per scene
basis, just like we can with the tempo, this would be a simple and easy
way to accomodate time signature changes in a live environment.

scene 1 - intro - 7/8
scene 2 - verse - 4/4
scene 3 - breakdown - 5/4
scene 4 - chorus - 9/8

etc etc..

It's not a hard solution, and it's also not hard to wrap your brain around.
Heck, then you could have a section change time signature AND tempos
automagically, while everything stays in time, and we dont have to
be hovering over our triggers to make sure we manage to hit it right
on that magical 8th note while at the same time trying to pay attention
to 3 or 4 other players...

I am sorry if that is confusing for you..

[Tone Deft]

At one extreme I'd say that your band could play in any time signature they want with a tape recorder and Live can emulate a tape recorder. So get on with it.

you misunderstand me.
i am not using live as a recorder, i am using it as a performance tool.
when we decide to play the b section (for example) and it's in 9/8 while
the rest of the sections are in 4/4... that is a big change..

sure i could drop 9/8 clips in to a 4/4 global session and set the thing to 1/8 notes..
but then i'd have to be BANG on with the rest of the band... no mistakes...
when switching back to 4/4.

If it is set to 1bar it will play the 9/8 in time, until I hit the next scene, which
will start up at the next bar of 4.... not at the next bar of 9/8...

do you get it?

I think we should be able to assign the time signature on a scene per scene
basis, just like we can with the tempo, this would be a simple and easy
way to accomodate time signature changes in a live environment.

scene 1 - intro - 7/8
scene 2 - verse - 4/4
scene 3 - breakdown - 5/4
scene 4 - chorus - 9/8

etc etc..

It's not a hard solution, and it's also not hard to wrap your brain around.
Heck, then you could have a section change time signature AND tempos
automagically, while everything stays in time, and we dont have to
be hovering over our triggers to make sure we manage to hit it right
on that magical 8th note while at the same time trying to pay attention
to 3 or 4 other players...

I am sorry if that is confusing for you..

Nice post. You're talking global quantise and scene launching, that indeed would suck.

I get that you've done your homework and have a valid point. I think that at this point some examples would be useful to work with. There are some things that you can read about but there's nothing like real experience like where you're coming from. It would move this thread along wonderfully if someone posted a .als with varying time sigs in it. I could make my own, that would take time.

I'll keep your post in mind. I do agree that time sigs aren't done in Live correctly. I don't know how much of a mess it can be because I don't to time sig changes, I just play and record.

[leisuremuffin]

i think the deal is that nobody is saying, "don't implement time sig change."

shit, i'm all for it, i just can't handle the constant griefing over it. The abes will do it, i'm sure. in the meantime, do what you have to to make music.




oh, and i'm wondering why those who want to talk about the warp thing havent chimed in at the other thread.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 351#501351



.lm.

[Tone Deft]

i think the deal is that nobody is saying, "don't implement time sig change."

shit, i'm all for it, i just can't handle the constant griefing over it. The abes will do it, i'm sure. in the meantime, do what you have to to make music.




oh, and i'm wondering why those who want to talk about the warp thing havent chimed in at the other thread.


.lm.

On point.

[snowtires]

what i'm confused about with this statement is why i have to know everything about warping if i don't use it.

You're not getting me.

I don't care what you do or don't do with warp, I respect you for not using it much, I dig that you actually PLAY instruments and not arpeggiators, very cool.

I do care about people ranting and posting BAD information on the forum, especially with something like warp that's a unique feature to Live that's pretty misunderstood in the first place. I'm often wrong on shit I post but I don't rant on subjects I'm unsure of, there are some topics I only read about and never post on.


For everything you ever wanted to know about warp do some experiments. How does A compare to B?? Drop a utility plug-in onto B, invert its phase 180' and play A and B at the same time. Warped, unwarped, at tempo, above and below tempo.

but that's what i'm saying: i don't need to phase invert the track and compare, i hear the track, at tempo, warped, and it has digital artifacting. i hear the same track, at tempo, unwarped, and there is no artifacting. i don't know why i would have to go through such a big rigmarole to tell me something i can already see/hear for myself.

[snowtires]

i think the deal is that nobody is saying, "don't implement time sig change."

shit, i'm all for it, i just can't handle the constant griefing over it. The abes will do it, i'm sure. in the meantime, do what you have to to make music.




oh, and i'm wondering why those who want to talk about the warp thing havent chimed in at the other thread.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 351#501351



.lm.

yeah, i'm sure they'll do it at some point. but they're now on live 6, i've had live since 4 and it's still not there.

[Tone Deft]

what i'm confused about with this statement is why i have to know everything about warping if i don't use it.

You're not getting me.

I don't care what you do or don't do with warp, I respect you for not using it much, I dig that you actually PLAY instruments and not arpeggiators, very cool.

I do care about people ranting and posting BAD information on the forum, especially with something like warp that's a unique feature to Live that's pretty misunderstood in the first place. I'm often wrong on shit I post but I don't rant on subjects I'm unsure of, there are some topics I only read about and never post on.


For everything you ever wanted to know about warp do some experiments. How does A compare to B?? Drop a utility plug-in onto B, invert its phase 180' and play A and B at the same time. Warped, unwarped, at tempo, above and below tempo.

but that's what i'm saying: i don't need to phase invert the track and compare, i hear the track, at tempo, warped, and it has digital artifacting. i hear the same track, at tempo, unwarped, and there is no artifacting. i don't know why i would have to go through such a big rigmarole to tell me something i can already see/hear for myself.

Facts is facts. What you hear can be placebo or a problem somewhere else in your audio chain. It's a really simple experiment to try. Between trusting your ears or anyone's ears or doing a simple phase inversion, ANYONE would prefer the phase inversion. You're just being stubborn, you hear it, you won't take another look at it. It's worthwhile doing so you understand Live better. Again, it's you limiting yourself and complaining about it.

I don't think there's much to be had from this thread anymore, I'm getting sucked into the argumentative nature it all. Bad juju.

[hoffman2k]

what i'm confused about with this statement is why i have to know everything about warping if i don't use it.

You're not getting me.

I don't care what you do or don't do with warp, I respect you for not using it much, I dig that you actually PLAY instruments and not arpeggiators, very cool.

I do care about people ranting and posting BAD information on the forum, especially with something like warp that's a unique feature to Live that's pretty misunderstood in the first place. I'm often wrong on shit I post but I don't rant on subjects I'm unsure of, there are some topics I only read about and never post on.


For everything you ever wanted to know about warp do some experiments. How does A compare to B?? Drop a utility plug-in onto B, invert its phase 180' and play A and B at the same time. Warped, unwarped, at tempo, above and below tempo.

but that's what i'm saying: i don't need to phase invert the track and compare, i hear the track, at tempo, warped, and it has digital artifacting. i hear the same track, at tempo, unwarped, and there is no artifacting. i don't know why i would have to go through such a big rigmarole to tell me something i can already see/hear for myself.

Maybe to understand how and why something is warping...
Yes, no doubt you can hear warping. I also have no doubt that there are clips where you cant hear it. Those would be clips cropped exactly to length played back at original tempo.
Your statement is only half-true.