MIDI CC zero value doesn't record?

[arturnowak]

Problem with envelopes and MIDI CC parameter zero value.

Let's say you record an envelope - values of reverb knob. When you turn it down to zero, Live should record zero, right? In this example it means zero reverb output. But Live doesn't record zero state actually. If you start the recording in a position, when the envelope value is zero, it doesn't actually send zero to your reverb knob. Why I say this? Well, just move your reverb knob to another position (let's say to the center position), then point the scrub to position, where the envelope goes down to zero. The reverb knob should jump from center position to zero, right? It doesn't!!!

Why this is important? Let's say you want to make a clip from a piece of arrangement track. If you cut the start in a place, where your reverb knob envelope was zero, it will not move the knob to zero, the new clip won't set the position of the reverb knob at all, it will stay where is was.

This is veeeery bad. It seems to me that envelopes are not really envelopes, but MIDI event sequences (the breakpoint is the event). True envelope keeps sending value, when it stays unchanged, Live doesn't do that, it just stops recording/sending when the value is set.

Is there a way to fix this?

[Amaury]

Problem with envelopes and MIDI CC parameter zero value.

Let's say you record an envelope - values of reverb knob. When you turn it down to zero, Live should record zero, right? In this example it means zero reverb output. But Live doesn't record zero state actually. If you start the recording in a position, when the envelope value is zero, it doesn't actually send zero to your reverb knob. Why I say this? Well, just move your reverb knob to another position (let's say to the center position), then point the scrub to position, where the envelope goes down to zero. The reverb knob should jump from center position to zero, right? It doesn't!!!

Why this is important? Let's say you want to make a clip from a piece of arrangement track. If you cut the start in a place, where your reverb knob envelope was zero, it will not move the knob to zero, the new clip won't set the position of the reverb knob at all, it will stay where is was.

This is veeeery bad. It seems to me that envelopes are not really envelopes, but MIDI event sequences (the breakpoint is the event). True envelope keeps sending value, when it stays unchanged, Live doesn't do that, it just stops recording/sending when the value is set.

Is there a way to fix this?

Hi,

I just tried this way: I dragged a device to a track (Ableton device), created an automation curve in arrangement for the dry/wet knob, left it to 0 for the beginning of the arragnement, and created a ramp later. now, wherever I place the insertion mark (playhead) in the Arrangement, the dry/wet knob jumps to the right value, including when it is to 0.

What are we doing differently?

Regards,
Amaury

[arturnowak]

I'm using different setup:

1) Reaktor, not native Ableton instrument. And - Reaktor is not running as VST, but standalone, in parallel to Live. MIDI signals are wired using MIDI Yoke (many people use it, myself also, never experienced a single problem, although MIDI Yoke could be the root cause, but it would be really strange, that the envelope zero value is sent out by Live, when you scrub in the middle of a flat, zero value envelope, and MIDI Yoke would cut this zero signal)

2) The setup is more complex, I have Lemur, which controls Reaktor and sends MIDI to Live in paralel. Everything here works fine (MIDI Yoke again)

So, the singal path is following:
Live clip MIDI CC envelope ---> to MIDI output in Live --> to MIDI Yoke --> to Reaktor (running in parallel to Live).

All other values are received correctly - maybe except 127 (I need to check again), which behaves in the same way as zero.

This is similar setup to external MIDI hardware, the destination could be a hardware instrument instead of Reaktor (I didn't check this, I don't own any HW instruments! I could check with Berhinger controller though, which can receive MIDI CC data)

[Amaury]

I'm using different setup:

1) Reaktor, not native Ableton instrument. And - Reaktor is not running as VST, but standalone, in parallel to Live. MIDI signals are wired using MIDI Yoke (many people use it, myself also, never experienced a single problem, although MIDI Yoke could be the root cause, but it would be really strange, that the envelope zero value is sent out by Live, when you scrub in the middle of a flat, zero value envelope, and MIDI Yoke would cut this zero signal)

2) The setup is more complex, I have Lemur, which controls Reaktor and sends MIDI to Live in paralel. Everything here works fine (MIDI Yoke again)

So, the singal path is following:
Live clip MIDI CC envelope ---> to MIDI output in Live --> to MIDI Yoke --> to Reaktor (running in parallel to Live).

All other values are received correctly - maybe except 127 (I need to check again), which behaves in the same way as zero.

This is similar setup to external MIDI hardware, the destination could be a hardware instrument instead of Reaktor (I didn't check this, I don't own any HW instruments! I could check with Berhinger controller though, which can receive MIDI CC data)

Hi,

All right, I'm ot having such a setup to test right now. I sort of remember such a problem, using MIDI CCs with other softwares back in the day. I sould have to check with other people here at Ableton, who would know better about this.

Regards,
Amaury

[arturnowak]

I will appreciate an answer...

[arturnowak]

I'm testing it right now, and I found another strange thing: if the clip midi cc envelope is flat at value 1, it doesn't sent the value as well. The knob in Reaktor, which is supposed to be automated by the envelope, has 128 setp resolution, so it should be "sensitive" to every envelope value.

I have also noticed, that it doesn't help if the envelope has few breakpoints with 0 value; the value is not sent out by Live.

[arturnowak]

I sort of remember such a problem, using MIDI CCs with other softwares back in the day. I sould have to check with other people here at Ableton, who would know better about this.

Regards,
Amaury

So, what is the answer?

[Amaury]

I sort of remember such a problem, using MIDI CCs with other softwares back in the day. I sould have to check with other people here at Ableton, who would know better about this.

Regards,
Amaury

So, what is the answer?

Hi,

Based from an answer from our developers, and some testings: there needs to be an envelope, for Live to send a value. It means that you need to create at least one breakpoint into the clip's envelope, even if the envelope is 'flat'. Let me know if it works for you.

Regards,
Amaury