Better Audio Engine

zobomix · Post by **zobomix** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:00 am

I can't tell you the surprise when, after working on the arrangement of a song, I move the project to PT for mixing. Everything sounds brighter and the stereo image is even wider in PT.

Same story happens if I bounce to disk in Live and then playback the rendered stereo file on iTunes. I am coming to the point where I don't trust much whatever EQ or compression I use in Live because I know it's gonna sound different and not necessarily how I intended it to be.

I understand that every DAW has its own sound, but Live sounds lo-fi to me. That's a shame because Live is more inspiring to use. Still, sound quality is inferior.

PLease fix it. I am still on version 5 for this reason (and the sysex capability). No hard feelings but this is a major one.

snakedogman · Post by **snakedogman** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:41 am

you have itunes' sound enhancer stuff switched off I hope?

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:50 am

Tools....

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:15 pm

morons...

zobomix · Post by **zobomix** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:37 pm

Tools....

Nah, it's just a fact of life that some DAWs have better audio engines than others. I am asking for better tools, not just tools.

Yes, iTunes has audio enhancer off. I can even burn a CD, stick it in the CD player, and it sounds different.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:01 am

uhhhhhmmmmmmmm, it' a fact of life that a digital pcm file plays back the same on any software.

Audio interface can be a variable. but to say that a single wav file plays back differently on one piece of software from another is silly.

if your protools system is an HD system, i don't doubt it sounds better, those interfaces are amazing, but an LE system? I don't buy it. If you use the same interface with live and pro tools they aren't going to be different.

difference in mix bus can be argued, although i don't really believe that one either, at least if we're comparing 32bit float systems.

.lm.

zobomix · Post by **zobomix** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:22 am

No way man. I think you need to get a bit of experience on a few DAWs and check the results. I didn't come up with my statement out of sheer vanity.

And there's no need to be offensive. We strive to be civil here, or at least that's what I do.

The 'HD interface' also known as the 192, isn't amazing at all if you've ever used one. They are ok and get the job done, but amazing? Not really. I use Lavry Blue if you really want to know.

Peace.

snakedogman · Post by **snakedogman** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:31 am

I haven't tested it myself but I've seen and read about lots of actual tests (ie inverting waveforms, blind tests etc) and never has it ever been conclusively proven that one DAW's mixing buss sounds different from another. Still, many many people claim they can hear "obvious differences" even when faced with waveforms that completely zero eachother out.
So it's certainly not a "fact of life", but rather a highly contested possibility.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:50 am

i don't see how i'm being offensive.

trust me, you'll know when i am.

all i am saying is that it is stupidity to believe that a wav file is played back different between live and anything else.

like i said, the mix bus issue is debatable, but any difference is hardly obvious. Personally, I don't believe there is one.

you believe whatever bullshit you want to though, its fine with me.

.lm.

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:01 am

All i will say is that Live's default output level seems quieter than other software, but that is just a matter of volume to be honest. I think Live's output levels are set quite conservatively for some reason...

zobomix · Post by **zobomix** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:18 am

There may be different pan law values among DAWs and that alone accounts for slight differences. Indeed, differences are subtle and untrained ears may not detect them. I don't really care for those articles as most magazines are driven by advertisment so they'll say everything is amazing. Instead, I did A/B tests in studios.

What I found is that between Live and PTLE or HD (the ones I work on the most) the difference is more than just subtle. The stereo image is narrower in Live because everything sounds wider and brighter on other systems.

If you ask top mastering engineers why they have chosen a specific DAW they'll tell you that, after A/B tests on their $20,000 speakers, they prefer one or another. So it's not a matter of better or worse but instead what they like. Hence, there are differences.

Between the brightness and the shrinked stereo image in Live , the latter is what bothers me the most.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:29 pm

Do some searches here man, this has been tested and proven with a number of DAWs now. In all cases the mix engine of Live and other DAWs produced EXACT bit for bit copies as long as the pan laws were set the same. Obviously as soon as you start adding the proprietary effects each DAW comes with, things go out the window.

I'd link the tests for you, but to be honest this has been brought up and debunked so many times now I can't be bothered.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:55 pm

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 900#333900
Robert Henke on Live panning laws

Live6 engine vs SX3.1 engine
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45804&

wave inversion cancellation test.

please read the whole thread as some test errors are reduced during the discussion

kenspocket · Post by **kenspocket** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:59 pm

i think your correct , vlc for instance sounds different to quicktime , same out put same file.

cubase on the old os9 was mega phased . it was hard not for every thing to phase out L&R etc .

live on the other hand sounds dull compared to protools , we had a 20bit nubus system with 2x 888's before the motu / live G5 rig . it always sounded fresh..

before that we had a a4000 amiga with ad516 sunrise card , & a macro systems toccata DSP card also , the macro card sounded better . both were 16bit 48khz same files.
sunrise studio 16 & , sampletude sounded better .

In fack id say the toccata 16bit 48khz & samplitude amiga sounds as good as iv heard . really wide / phat analog outs! {{{{{{{{ (':P')}}}}}}}}

im not impressed with Live 6's performance even on our Quad G5 2.5 ghz MAC audio all in 24bit 48khz . lag & GUI sag , if it wasent for the Quad CPU weve got id rather use live v3 /4 , & protools.

The motu rack sounds fine btw . much better inputs than G5's rear 24bit analog in .

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:49 pm

y'know what, i give up.

some people believe all sorts of snake oil nonsense and nothing is going to stop that.

.lm.

Better Audio Engine

Better Audio Engine

digital sound