making it loud and proud

[softserv]

Hi all,
I've finally bought Live instead of just using the demo! Yaay! I can now save my stuff!

I am wondering if you have any tricks to get a song's volume up when rendered to disk. I normalized, but the the volume of my tune when I burn it to CD and play it on my stereo is low. Is there a good way to do this? I've put compression on the master track, and have brought up the volume of all tracks as high as it will go without maxing out, but it's still quiet.

Any thoughts?

Gracias,
softserv

[Michael-SW]

Follow this workflow to make sure you get everything done right:

Make sure your master fader plays the audio reasonably loud, but no clipping (individual track faders doesn't matter).

Render in 24 bits from Live.

Import the file in a sound editor (Audacity (free), Sound Forge etc)

Normalize to -0.5 dB or so.

Convert to 16 bits with dithering

Burn to CD.

If your song still sounds quiet, then it is compression, limiting and sounds with more punch that is needed.

Some tips: Check the average dB level in a sound editor (dB RMS). Compare to a commercial track in the same style. dB RMS is what the ear hears as volume. Compression and limiting brings it up.

Also check your song visually in a sound editor. Do you have a few high peaks while the rest of the song is much lower? Or do you consistently have peaks from a particular instrument? Then those peaks might need limiting or remixing. Hi hat sounds have an annoying habit of taking up all the headroom without sounding loud. Mix down and/or limit them if that is what you find.

[softserv]

Thank you! Very helpful.
I don't really understand what limiting is, though. Can you explain?

[laird]

Limiting is like really strong compression, but not as strong as plain old clipping.

Everything that goes over a threshold (say, -6dB) is "limited" (or set) to -6dB... but instead of just clipping the signal at that point, the limiter rounds the edges off a bit. Then you can boost your song by +6dB, making everything loud.

People often use a compressor first, then add a limiter after the compressor, just to make sure nothing clips.

You might experiment with using a compressor with a really really low threshold and a low ratio (like, -25 dB, ratio of 1.5:1 or less) and then put a limiter after that compressor, set to maybe something like -1 to -3 dB (with makeup gain).

You might also try downloading some sort of FFT analyzer and compare the frequencies of your song with other CDs you like. You might have too much bass... if you have a lot of sub-bass going on, that can be pushing your song to the 0dB mark... . BUT your stereo system might not be able to reproduce any of those frequencies, thus in reality your song is only peaking at -6dB or something.

Solution: run every individual track through a High-Pass filter. Kick drum and bass tracks I might only set to filter out everything below 40hz, but all other tracks I might set the HP filter around 80hz or so. This might free up some headroom.

Frequency content is very important (and difficult to gague) when it comes to loudness. Thats why commercials sound louder than TV shows... they've not only been compressed, but they have a lot of high mids boosted, wehich sound loud to our ears.

[Michael-SW]

In Sound Forge, you find the dB RMS under Tools->Statistics. I'm sure Audacity has the same function somewhere.

A very short unscientific lookaround in some commerical songs on my HD showed that you should aim for around -10 to -13 dB RMS if you do 4/4 club music and want it to sound "commercial". A track made only with acoustic guitar and song will obviously be very different.

[softserv]

Thanks again.

I'm assuming everything you're advising here can or should be done in a sound editor? Like adding a limiter after compression (or do I do that in Live? I'm not sure I have a limiter), running it through a high pass filter and cutting out low frequencies. Is that right or am I supposed to be doing this in Live?

Excuse my ignorance...

I'm about to download Audacity and check it out.

[friend_kami]

Limiting is like really strong compression, but not as strong as plain old clipping.

Everything that goes over a threshold (say, -6dB) is "limited" (or set) to -6dB... but instead of just clipping the signal at that point, the limiter rounds the edges off a bit. Then you can boost your song by +6dB, making everything loud.

People often use a compressor first, then add a limiter after the compressor, just to make sure nothing clips.

You might experiment with using a compressor with a really really low threshold and a low ratio (like, -25 dB, ratio of 1.5:1 or less) and then put a limiter after that compressor, set to maybe something like -1 to -3 dB (with makeup gain).

You might also try downloading some sort of FFT analyzer and compare the frequencies of your song with other CDs you like. You might have too much bass... if you have a lot of sub-bass going on, that can be pushing your song to the 0dB mark... . BUT your stereo system might not be able to reproduce any of those frequencies, thus in reality your song is only peaking at -6dB or something.

Solution: run every individual track through a High-Pass filter. Kick drum and bass tracks I might only set to filter out everything below 40hz, but all other tracks I might set the HP filter around 80hz or so. This might free up some headroom.

Frequency content is very important (and difficult to gague) when it comes to loudness. Thats why commercials sound louder than TV shows... they've not only been compressed, but they have a lot of high mids boosted, wehich sound loud to our ears.

now, what limiter(s) would people recommend?
im guessing that lives compressor with the limiter preset doesnt really count, right?

ive never really bothered by all that crap until like a year ago, and still trying to get the most out of my music in terms of mastering and whatnots.
practice makes perfects, right?

so now im currently at the limiter stage, as i reckon that limiting in post with a mixdown from the master isnt really that efficient(sp?) in the long run.

with that said: should one go for individual track rendering, then post, or should one get a decent limiter plugin?

[laird]

A limiter is really just a very very strong compressor.
So the Live compressor set to the limiter preset does count.

There are a variety of limiters out there. My advice is to not spend $$$ on any of them yet.

Learn to use the tools at hand first. Using Live's compressors wisely will yield better results than using a $1500 compressor/limiter and just assuming "it'll sound good 'cuz its expensive".

We've all fallen into that trap and learned the hard way (wasted money, years of crappy mixes).

The more sparingly you can use limiting and compression, the better.

Anyhow, I think you can get some good results with Live's fx... if you dont over-do it, you can certaily improve your song's overall oomph.

[friend_kami]

yeah ive been using the compressors in live for some time now, and ive noticed that aswell, the oomph.

i wasnt aware that a limiter is just a very hard compressor though, thanks for that.

ofcourse id spend less if i can, guess ill stick with the shit ive got then.
by the way, exactly how does normalizing work really?
i know theres info on it on the web, but those are usually stacked with too much technical data.

i remember someonee posted a tutorial here on how to get the most of your mix, but i cant seem to find it (atm anyways).

in what cases should you use normalizing instead of limiting really?
as far as i know it normalizing normalizes everything up to the highest peak, correct?

[laird]

Normalizing finds the highest peak in your music. Lets say you have a quiet recording, and the max is only at -10dB. Normalization adds 10dB to everything.

Whereas with Compression/Limiting, you can add +10dB to the quiet stuff while the loud stuff stays roughly the same (but doesn't clip).

Compression/Limiting can bring out some of the quiet details in your mix, it can even out poor recordings (ever watch a movie and have to turn up the volume on all the dialogue, but turn it way down during the ection sequences? A compressor is just like having someone hit the remote for you.)

COmpression/Limiting, when overdone, can remove all dynamics from a song, grate on the ears by making everything totally SQUARE and ALL_LOUD_ALL-THE-TIME, JUST LIKE IF I WERE TO HITS CAPS LOCK AND PROCEED TO WRITE A SHORT STORY. KINDA DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF CAPITOL LETTERS DOESNT IT? ANNOYING, HUH?

[Stiff]

What you want to do is master it, or some of the mastering at least. And it includes what the previous poster have said about importing it into an editor. I however think you should leave proper headroom, around 6db at least. This gives you much more options in this stage. Remember, mixing is not about raising the volume.

I suggest you check out The project studio handbook, it's a great tool for information on what limiters, compressors, mastering etc is all about.

[friend_kami]

Normalizing finds the highest peak in your music. Lets say you have a quiet recording, and the max is only at -10dB. Normalization adds 10dB to everything.

Whereas with Compression/Limiting, you can add +10dB to the quiet stuff while the loud stuff stays roughly the same (but doesn't clip).

Compression/Limiting can bring out some of the quiet details in your mix, it can even out poor recordings (ever watch a movie and have to turn up the volume on all the dialogue, but turn it way down during the ection sequences? A compressor is just like having someone hit the remote for you.)

COmpression/Limiting, when overdone, can remove all dynamics from a song, grate on the ears by making everything totally SQUARE and ALL_LOUD_ALL-THE-TIME, JUST LIKE IF I WERE TO HITS CAPS LOCK AND PROCEED TO WRITE A SHORT STORY. KINDA DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF CAPITOL LETTERS DOESNT IT? ANNOYING, HUH?

ahyeah i know rougly how a compressor works but normalizing didnt really get stuck to my got-to-know-when-making-music memory just yet. ^^.
i just have to say though that compression, when used as an effect rather then an actual comprosser (ie for dyunamic purposes) can make really food results.

think sidechaining, only rougher and with a twist.

ie, hard gabber, broken beats, breakcore, and noise.
i use compressors alot, not really as i should, but more as effect units that can (depending on what frequencies and settings youve got) really make my otherwise sligtly boring sounds into something quite exciting indeed.

now to continue on the normalizing post i posted earlier, you say that if you have -10 it adds 10. is this to make it +-0db, or is this a general rule no matter what your original db is?

edit:im drunk, please ignore any stupid spellings and/or comments that makes no sense to you.

[softserv]

Does anyone know if the 50-something dollar Sound Forge is worthwhile, or is the 399.00 one the real product?

Thanks!
Softserv