Zeitgeist the movie (would be mandatory viewing if up 2 me)

[pepezabala]

I do not understand the logic here. You say we should fight against islam because it´s about

" survival of society; the Greco-Roman tradition of logic and rationalism, and the Judeo-Christian system of morality, and the individualist ideals born in the 18th century."

Well, those traditions brought us lots of things, among others they were fundamental for both communism and fascim, isn't it? Fancy stuff to kill or die for.

What's next? When we killed all the arabs you will send us probably to fight against the chinese, they might be a big thread for "western civilization" as well.

Or why don't we bomb venezuela? The bolivarian revolution might bring some harm as well.



What I am trying to say is that the idea of "clash of civilization" is pure ideology. And what we should have learned from history is that ideology isn't something that you should violently fight for. There isn't even the need to violently "defend" your ideology.

[trip_out]

Multiculturalism is a failed experiment... Sorry, I'm living in it every day, and the residents of suburban Europe can pretty much attest to it's failure as well.

Well as a European myself I consider your ignorance to be very high. Especially since in your eyes my years of happy marriage is a failed experiment.

Given that you live in a country of immigration I find it hard to stomach your standpoint, and your view of Europe - which is continent of multiple cultures (and has been for centuries). Let me refresh your memory - we fought a war against fascism here in Europe, we do not want it back thank you.

You're confusing multi-cultural with multi-racial. Multi-racial couples, and multi-racial societies function perfectly when they have a homogeneous CULTURE. Do you and your spouse speak the same language(s)? Do you both agree on similar principles of democracy, freedom of speech and woman's rights? Do you both share a belief system, or a tolerance for other belief systems? If so, THEN YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE ARE FROM THE SAME CULTURE.

Yes we are from different cultures. I suggest you look it up the word in the English dictionary. The list you give does not define a culture. It does however define your (bigoted) view of Islam.

[djgroovy]

Do you both share a belief system, or a tolerance for other belief systems?

M Breqs, you don't have any tolerance for other belief systems. That makes you an extremist. If you were born on a islamic country, you would be a terrorist, Since you were not, you just talk shit!

[M. Bréqs]

I do not understand the logic here. You say we should fight against islam because it´s about

" survival of society; the Greco-Roman tradition of logic and rationalism, and the Judeo-Christian system of morality, and the individualist ideals born in the 18th century."

Well, those traditions brought us lots of things, among others they were fundamental for both communism and fascim, isn't it? Fancy stuff to kill or die for.

What's next? When we killed all the arabs you will send us probably to fight against the chinese, they might be a big thread for "western civilization" as well.

Or why don't we bomb venezuela? The bolivarian revolution might bring some harm as well.



What I am trying to say is that the idea of "clash of civilization" is pure ideology. And what we should have learned from history is that ideology isn't something that you should violently fight for. There isn't even the need to violently "defend" your ideology.

Read this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_c ... ilizations

Whether Latin America and the former member states of the Soviet Union are included, or are instead their own separate civilizations, will be an important future consideration for those regions, according to Huntington.

Notice any communist country in the dark blue? No?

So you can see that while communism may have been developed by a SMALL GROUP in Western civilization, our society never embraced it: Orthodox society did, and then imposed it on some Western countries. Fascism of course existed outside of western civilization; in fact, you could easily identify the Ottoman Empire as proto-fascist, and any undemocratic regime in any society (which by global population has at some point most of the people living outside Western Civilization, actually).

Why don't we go after the Chinese? Because they are interested in regional economic power, rather than global theocratic expansion.

Islam has bloody borders

Take a look at this relationship diagram showing Huntington's view of civilizational conflict:



The bolder the lines the more there are historic incidences of conflict. Who has the most? Islam. With whom do they not have conflict? With those out of their reach (South America and Japan).

That's why there's no reason to go after anybody else; because nobody else is a a threat of the same degree of magnitude as Islam.

[M. Bréqs]

OK, I've got to go, I can't keep this conversation up. Have fun kids.

[b0unce]

[thelocalhost]

I do not understand the logic here. You say we should fight against islam because it´s about

" survival of society; the Greco-Roman tradition of logic and rationalism, and the Judeo-Christian system of morality, and the individualist ideals born in the 18th century."

Well, those traditions brought us lots of things, among others they were fundamental for both communism and fascim, isn't it? Fancy stuff to kill or die for.

What's next? When we killed all the arabs you will send us probably to fight against the chinese, they might be a big thread for "western civilization" as well.

Or why don't we bomb venezuela? The bolivarian revolution might bring some harm as well.



What I am trying to say is that the idea of "clash of civilization" is pure ideology. And what we should have learned from history is that ideology isn't something that you should violently fight for. There isn't even the need to violently "defend" your ideology.

Read this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_c ... ilizations

Whether Latin America and the former member states of the Soviet Union are included, or are instead their own separate civilizations, will be an important future consideration for those regions, according to Huntington.

Notice any communist country in the dark blue? No?

So you can see that while communism may have been developed by a SMALL GROUP in Western civilization, our society never embraced it: Orthodox society did, and then imposed it on some Western countries. Fascism of course existed outside of western civilization; in fact, you could easily identify the Ottoman Empire as proto-fascist, and any undemocratic regime in any society (which by global population has at some point most of the people living outside Western Civilization, actually).

Why don't we go after the Chinese? Because they are interested in regional economic power, rather than global theocratic expansion.

Islam has bloody borders

Take a look at this relationship diagram showing Huntington's view of civilizational conflict:



The bolder the lines the more there are historic incidences of conflict. Who has the most? Islam. With whom do they not have conflict? With those out of their reach (South America and Japan).

That's why there's no reason to go after anybody else; because nobody else is a a threat of the same degree of magnitude as Islam.

There is no one to enlighten. Stop posting.

[pepezabala]

Well, I still don't buy it.

From the same wikipedia article you pointed to:

The Clash of Civilizations thesis may also be regarded as an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The ideas of Huntington and Bernard Lewis were already influential among American neoconservative figures such as Vice President Richard Cheney prior
to September 11, 2001; Middle East scholar Gilles Kepel (2003) reports that many radical Islamists in the Middle East likewise viewed Huntington's thesis approvingly.
Therefore, the fact that U.S. policymakers and radical Islamists have confronted each other in a certain way
may be an indication that people on both sides were interpreting events according to the thesis,
rather than that the thesis itself was especially prescient.

Again:

So there are people that try to sell us a war on the idea of a "clash of civilization". This ideology is a legitimation for both sides to fight.

I say we shouldn't buy it. Those people are to blame for 9/11 and the war in iraq.

[Tone Deft]

Well, I still don't buy it.

From the same wikipedia article you pointed to:

The Clash of Civilizations thesis may also be regarded as an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The ideas of Huntington and Bernard Lewis were already influential among American neoconservative figures such as Vice President Richard Cheney prior
to September 11, 2001; Middle East scholar Gilles Kepel (2003) reports that many radical Islamists in the Middle East likewise viewed Huntington's thesis approvingly.
Therefore, the fact that U.S. policymakers and radical Islamists have confronted each other in a certain way
may be an indication that people on both sides were interpreting events according to the thesis,
rather than that the thesis itself was especially prescient.

Again:

So there are people that try to sell us a war on the idea of a "clash of civilization". This ideology is a legitimation for both sides to fight.

I say we shouldn't buy it. Those people are to blame for 9/11 and the war in iraq.

you think you have a choice?
It's the systematic way the US has practiced world domination and
influence pretty much its entire existence. That was the point of that
section of the movie.

Even if we KNOW the US government is full of shit, manipulating us, lying
to us, starting unjust wars, losing track of money, destroying documents,
outing spies as revenge (Plame, Libby), it does not matter. The US
government does what it wants.


Guys - take it easy on Breqs, it's boring to discuss points with people you
agree with, isn't it more interesting to discuss with someone you disagree
with, especially when the dialogue doesn't turn into name calling. This is a
good opportunity to learn about the 'other side' of the argument. In
debate knowing BOTH sides is key, they guy's actually a good resource
and helping you out.

If you have to shit on people, go shit on people at the Cubase forum,
those stupid fucks don't even know what good software is.

[pepezabala]

you think you have a choice?
It's the systematic way the US has practiced world domination and
influence pretty much its entire existence. That was the point of that
section of the movie.

Well, I probably should see that movie, and I should read the book of Huntington. Now if I had only time to do all this stuff. ...

Guys - take it easy on Breqs, it's boring to discuss points with people you
agree with, isn't it more interesting to discuss with someone you disagree
with, especially when the dialogue doesn't turn into name calling. This is a
good opportunity to learn about the 'other side' of the argument. In
debate knowing BOTH sides is key, they guy's actually a good resource
and helping you out.

Exactly, I really appreciate that Monsieur Break is discussing this topic and that he is trying to explain Huntington's point of view.

If you have to shit on people, go shit on people at the Cubase forum,
those stupid fucks don't even know what good software is

aren't you a bit intolerant?[/quote]

[Tone Deft]

wait, you're posting in a thread about a movie you haven't watched?
yes you should watch it. I mostly listened to it while I was at work. when you
hear a pause in the audio it's because there's some quotes being shown,
check the video then.

It's not the most factually backed up video ever made, it does err on the shock
side of film making and it definitely charges forward with an obvious agenda
but it does ask some serious questions and bring up some interesting points.

Yes I'm intolerant of Cubase users, dumbest people on the planet. I want
them all dead.

[smartass303]

OK, I've got to go, I can't keep this conversation up. Have fun kids.

Thats so Brèqs...

You are a Nazi

[cosmosuave]

Well I was tlaking to my wife about the banking section of the movie and the reference to the North America Union (Canada, US,Mexico) and the Amero... She had mentioned that since the CDN dollar is nearing close to $1 US that they may announce this Amero idea.... Or the increase of the CDN dollar is to align it with the US dollar in order to implement the Amero...

Seems feasiblle but then I'm not a money expert...

[beats me]

The only thing this film didn't explain was my brainwashed need to buy a lemur when I probably don't use 90% of the capabilities of the software/hardware I currently own. I'm sure it will be covered in his next film that will only be available in iphone format.

[hoffman2k]

The only thing this film didn't explain was my brainwashed need to buy a lemur when I probably don't use 90% of the capabilities of the software/hardware I currently own. I'm sure it will be covered in his next film that will only be available in iphone format.

I'm brainwashed too.
But I'm pretty sure that the lemur will actually allow me to exploit more features and tricks then my current controllers allow.

Don't need a film to tell me that