Linux + Live?

[Martyn]

Linux guys, I feel you.
I really consider myself part of OSS/GNU movement whatever....

Look, sorry to break it to you:
Linux is not ready yet (driverwise).
It's marketshare is very limited.
If you need convincing, study that blazing multi-mega-bucks industry called _Linux_Gaming.
(For those not in the know,
Here's_Gaming_onLinux_Platform | Here's_a_Bunch of_zeros)

Look, the battle's already won, with big bad evil empire closed sources defeated ... All of this seems like Dancing Ewoks time, to me, really.
Don't you think Ableton Developer's have more than a few Linux boxes and servers for the coding...

Right tools for the right job, remember?
feel, you ok. Love you. Just let this go.

-h

You're talking absolute bollocks mate.

Utter utter shite. Running it now, been running it for over a year in the same manner, and i'm no expert! You obviously live in cloud-cuckoo-land or have some sort of gripe with it all.

Gaming? who gives a fuck about that? That's what games consoles are for. There are games available if you take the time to look and what there is runs very well indeed, the only reason there arn't more is that games (and audio apps) developers keep believing bullshit of the sort that you are dishing out.

Oh, and the driver thing is just a supply and demand situation, they won't bother until the demand grows, as soon as the penny drops that more hardware will sell, the drivers will appear as if by magic. (I have a reliable 64 samples of latency on my hardware thanx )

No, I don't think we'll see an Ableton Live Linux version either, but that doesn't change the FACT that more and more people are using it, liking it and SWITCHING every day now.

Negativity like yours is the problem.

[itook4lefts]

I have a reliable 64 samples of latency on my hardware thanx.

what hardware are you using? i like the idea of using linux, ubuntu studio looks right up my street. live is pretty much the only music app i use that's not linux-compatible. but... am i right in thinking there aren't many interfaces that work? ie, no firewire ones at all?

[friend_kami]

i remember windows with.. well.. windows.
stunning for some, just utter crap for some, never would work, worst idea ever.

yeah right.

change is bad people, i say stick with your os, just in case.

[Martyn]

I have a reliable 64 samples of latency on my hardware thanx.

what hardware are you using? i like the idea of using linux, ubuntu studio looks right up my street. live is pretty much the only music app i use that's not linux-compatible. but... am i right in thinking there aren't many interfaces that work? ie, no firewire ones at all?

Not sure about firewire interfaces, I have an old Terratec ewx card that seems to work fine over alsa, RME are well supported too. Do some research on some of the Linux audio forms like Jacklab or Ubuntustudio, the guys there know far and away more than I do. You'll get a quick response and all the help you need from the standard Ubuntuforums http://ubuntuforums.org/
It's fair to assume that if your hardware is supported then you'll get good if not better performance out of than you would in windows. The more people who express an interest in running Linux based audio systems, the more manufactures might see potential market and then we might see less driver availability problems.

It's certainly not impossible to get audio hardware that will run brilliantly, so the problem does not lie with the OS, just the hardware companies.

Ubuntustudio works fine here, Jacklab works great too if you want an open SUSE flavour.

http://jacklab.net/jacklaborg/english/

Ubuntustudio appears to be down at the mo, i think they're having server problems with the amount of traffic, says it all really.

[Martyn]

Saying that the battle has already been won is really odd imho. from where I'm sitting it looks like it's just started.

[Mesmer]

yeah but vista does have a really big problem with like.. well.. all drivers. not to mention that you need 1gb of ram just to use their "improved" graphic engine.

linux works out fo the box with alot of crap, without any terminal use even, and the things iit doesnt work with, its a matter of downloading, installing, enjoying.

yes, i know that linux is missing alot of support of alot of things, but really.. comparing it to vista is just plain stupid.

Well ... comparing them would in fact be good journalism OS1 vs. OS2, wouldn't it. Phiosophy1 vs. Philosophy2, etc.

But kami, in fact, what I did was compare your statement with Vista's statements (their sell pitch, etc.).

[Mesmer]

Saying that the battle has already been won is really odd imho. from where I'm sitting it looks like it's just started.

Except for the fact that MS has been talking "open source" left and right, and shaking hands and making deals with Novel/Suse etc. Plenty of governments are demanding that their de facto OS be open, and customized to their needs. With IBM and SUN pushing hard for Linux/Unix solutions ... and the Vista Fiasco; do you still think the Giant is not crumbling? No I don't mean bankrupcy, I mean no-more-extorsion-monopoly defeated.

you sitting under rocks, or something?

[Mesmer]

Linux guys, I feel you.
I really consider myself part of OSS/GNU movement whatever....

Look, sorry to break it to you:
Linux is not ready yet (driverwise).
It's marketshare is very limited.
If you need convincing, study that blazing multi-mega-bucks industry called _Linux_Gaming.
(For those not in the know,
Here's_Gaming_onLinux_Platform | Here's_a_Bunch of_zeros)

Look, the battle's already won, with big bad evil empire closed sources defeated ... All of this seems like Dancing Ewoks time, to me, really.
Don't you think Ableton Developer's have more than a few Linux boxes and servers for the coding...

Right tools for the right job, remember?
feel, you ok. Love you. Just let this go.

-h

You're talking absolute bollocks mate.

Utter utter shite. Running it now, been running it for over a year in the same manner, and i'm no expert! You obviously live in cloud-cuckoo-land or have some sort of gripe with it all.

Gaming? who gives a fuck about that? That's what games consoles are for. There are games available if you take the time to look and what there is runs very well indeed, the only reason there arn't more is that games (and audio apps) developers keep believing bullshit of the sort that you are dishing out.

Oh, and the driver thing is just a supply and demand situation, they won't bother until the demand grows, as soon as the penny drops that more hardware will sell, the drivers will appear as if by magic. (I have a reliable 64 samples of latency on my hardware thanx )

No, I don't think we'll see an Ableton Live Linux version either, but that doesn't change the FACT that more and more people are using it, liking it and SWITCHING every day now.

Negativity like yours is the problem.

Negativity huh? Funny no one ever mentioned that; must be I recant the GNU evangelism everywhere I turn. The _Fact_ is Gaming has a much wider audience than audio hobbyist/professionals, and the _Fact_ that plenty enterprises have tried to develop, port, market and sell games for the Linux platform and failed sends a strong message to other companies in related fields. Gaming (serious gaming) requires specialized hardware peripherals, controllers and display options. My heart goes out to you if you can't see the relaionship.

Seems to me you don't even understand the economic dynamics of the Linux movement. Drivers must surely appear because the pro bono developer writing in his spare time _has_ to develop for the hardware you're looking for, right? and the quality of this driver is? and support for it? yea, I hear you ... the strength of the community, yes I hear you the community. Well let me tell you one thing about that community: they know their way around a CLI console, package managers and fill_in_the_blanks documentation. Also, they don't feel it's a waste of time to join the project's mailing list and contribute to constructive discussions. That's beautiful man, I am there. Problem is, 3/4 of the people here just want to make music.

You still beg to differ? consider this: plenty of Windows user's here complain about how unbecoming or ugly it can get to make you controller (MIDI or otherwise) integrate well into their other grab-bag-assortment rig. At least twice a month we get an interesting show-and-tell supported by advice composed mostly of trickeries and hacks that makes novation_SL work alongside the padKontrol inside Battery3 routed to reason rewired to Live out through an Mbox whatever. This is in Windows. You think a Linux experience must be better somehow?!

These have to be the logical steps, as I understand them:
1. Get together a Linux Desktop that excels as a home/office easy-to-use, solid distribution OS. This is the foundation.
2. Sit a layer of pro-audio everything on top. (The layer for pro-graphics has been inplace for quite a while, this is commendable. That is the way to go. Still this is a direct consequence of the cost benefits of having a Linux servers rendering farm vs. some other propietary OS's farms. Can you say a demand in high-profile producers for cost benefits in audio rendering / production / post productions exists?)

I guess soon we'll be at 1. Before you jump the gun, remember where talking about grandma's usability here, not yours or mine. 2 will certainly come from the works of the foundation currently being laid. I applaud their efforts, it might pay big time in the future.

I share your optimism. It's focused on the GNU philosophy not the Linux kernel distributions. But please, fan-boyism helps nobody; and dreaming about Live in Linux is just snorting some sort of highly improbable (although achievable) dreamy dream. And why be so nearsighted? With the awsome tweakability, openness and wheer breadth of cultural diversity in the codebase, why not dream of some other _equally_magnificent_and_brilliant app? Wouldn't that killer app warrant more switchers? Those switchers willing to pay a little yet less than what they are used to?

Can't apologize, as, bursting your bubble was kind of fun.
Linux For Ever

-h

[Martyn]

@ Mesmer

Can't really see how you burst my bubble, glad you enjoyed whatever it was you enjoyed tho.

It seems we actually agree on a number of issues really, if Linux Audio does take off I'm sure it will be as a result of "some other _equally_magnificent_and_brilliant app" and not ports of current success stories like Live. This one's coming along nicely for one http://www.energy-xt.com/xt2.php

I'm not really a fanboy of anything either, I could drop any app i use in an instant if i found another, perhaps fresher and more inspiring way to do something i feel like doing. I think it's really healthy that things seem to moving again innovation wise where software is concerned, everything's got really stagnant of late. It all still remains to be seen how things pan out in the end but things are definitely changing, you'd have to be a complete moron not to be able to see that.

Yeah, just optimistic you could say. I've got an ubuntu feisty install running on my Mothers laptop and she loves it, had to put it on there because it was struggling to run the vista install it came with.

Don't you worry about my bubble mate, it's still intact from where I'm sitting.

[Mesmer]

Cool.
peace bro.
-h

[friend_kami]

@mesmer:

weve already covered point 1. theres alot of desktop dists out there, and theyre working quite perfect.

its the 2nd point that needs work, but again as so many poited out, its a matter of supply and demand. sure the gaming club for linux will help in this aswell, who wants to play a game with no sound, but consider this:

audio related linux distributions are popping up all over the place. surely they are popping up with more then an halfassed promise that *maybe* you can make music on them. the ones ive tried worked very well, but hardware and software, without any console hacking involved.

some years back nvidia users were complaining and crying their eyes out because they couldnt get their precious nvidia cards to work with opengl in linux. now nvidia has released a driver themselfes, and if you dont want to do console hacking to install it, just download envy and let envy install it for you. hell its even easier then to install on windows.

the reason nvidia released their own linux driver was just that: supply and demand. people wawnted it, because they were using linux with no support for their hardware and nvidia snapped this up and rolled their own.

i doubt that audio hardware companys wouldnt do the same, expecially considering how big audio on linux is right now, and how many distros there are.

each DAW/music related forum i read/post in there is always a big discussion about what distro to choose for audio on linux, the pros and cons of going linux over osx/win.

you say the battle is already lost, i say its just beginning.

not to mention how many companies that are switching to linux.
also, for gaming on linux theres alot of developers that are working with the wine/transgaming team to get a working version of their game for linux use. not porting per say, but works nonetheless.

edit: BOTH hardware and software, not but. heh.

[Mesmer]

@mesmer:
weve already covered point 1. theres alot of desktop dists out there, and theyre working quite perfect.

Yes I work almost exclusively on a Linux Desktop at work and at home; I follow the community closely, I try every once in a while a new distro. Ubuntu´s Click-n-Run must be surely helping to get there. ¨Perfect¨ is highly subjective, though. I´ll agree with you when the One Laptop Per Child project is declared an absolute total success; hey if children can do it, right? I think we are near that point. Remember there´s no law that _has_ to make this happen. Dell is dragging it´s feet and is finally offering a Linux_Preinstalled option for some (minum options)comps on offer. That has to help too. But there is no _destiny_ for this particular OS. It becomes what the communities develop.

@mesmer:
you say the battle is already lost, i say its just beginning.

No I didn´t.
friend, I said the Microsoft extorsionOpoly battle is coming to an end.

Look we are beating around the bush here; there´s an inminent revision of IP comming. We can certainly hope Linux garners a greater market share. I do. Still, did you know that most Linux shops make their money selling tech. support packages and expert consulting? That´s far from the detailed, point-of-sale or bundled capitalist model tried and tested for consumer OSes.

My comments are focused on keeping things real, and pragmatical in way of expectations from Abe and Co. If disregarding that you want to enjoy more Abe-on-Linux wet dreams then carry on.

[Martyn]

I don't see anything wrong in expressing an interest or wish that a software company might consider moving in a certain direction, even if you think that it's just a pipe dream. I've been banging on about sidechaining with native ableton fx for years now on this very forum and it hasn't happened yet.

I see it as like casting a vote, if nobody expresses anything like this then it's pretty certain that it'll never happen, likewise if people keep saying that it's not even worth mentioning then it makes it less and less likely too.

I'd like to see Ableton Live running on a Linux distro that's been built especially for the task, running on dedicated hardware like receptor does. I'd like all the fx to be native too, a sidechaining option of course.

There, I've said it.