crazy good shit.
so how do you all think of Live's implementation of swing? is there something they could do better? I need to try some experiments to catch up with what's been said but it all makes sense, thanks guys!!
Swing and Groove - What the fork?
Live has decent swing, but my gripe is mainly with the fact that there is one global swing/groove, and every track follows that. To set swing differently per track, you'd have to actually quantize them differently.
So for example, when a drummer plays with a swing, sometimes the EVEN 16th notes for the kick might be less swung to be tighter, but say the hats are swung more to give a looser feel. This is not possible with just a global swing on both, with each clip set to 16ths.
To get around it, a good trick is to practice with various degrees of quantizing to 16th triplets! Why? because the more you swing, the closer you get to triplets. In fact, if you were to take a standard 16th bar and swing to 100%, it would sound very close to triplets in 3/4 time. So what you do is take your 16 bar measure in midi and quantize to 16t but the degree of quantize would be of various degrees.
Hope that makes some sense.
So for example, when a drummer plays with a swing, sometimes the EVEN 16th notes for the kick might be less swung to be tighter, but say the hats are swung more to give a looser feel. This is not possible with just a global swing on both, with each clip set to 16ths.
To get around it, a good trick is to practice with various degrees of quantizing to 16th triplets! Why? because the more you swing, the closer you get to triplets. In fact, if you were to take a standard 16th bar and swing to 100%, it would sound very close to triplets in 3/4 time. So what you do is take your 16 bar measure in midi and quantize to 16t but the degree of quantize would be of various degrees.
Hope that makes some sense.
Tone Deft wrote:crazy good shit.
so how do you all think of Live's implementation of swing? is there something they could do better? I need to try some experiments to catch up with what's been said but it all makes sense, thanks guys!!
See my previous post about its swing timing - I just wish all the DAWs and sequencers would choose 100% as meaning exactly the same thing.
The real problem with Live is that its just swing and swing is just a delay. Quite often I want to subtley advance hits as well or actually apply a complete groove template that includes a variety of subtle offsets in both directions. For those who have use logic, cubase, reason etc - you get the idea.
An example, take a simple house beats, kicks on the beats, snares/claps on alternate beats, open HH on the off beats, closed/pedal HH around that.
Often Ill want the overall 16ths swing feel of around 25%, or 30 in Live, but with the snares and/or clap very slightly advanced of the beats to kind of drive the beats a little, or maybe alternate open HH slighly advanced or delayed etc.
The only way you can do this in Live is manually tweaking each hit, or if your a drummer, then thats probably the way you recorded it in the first place (on a good day if your a good drummer - Im just not that good to get it consistently).
As someone pointed out, you do often want very subtley different feel/timings on different sounds, especially if you are programming ethnic percussion rhythms. So global swing doesnt cut it, actually neither does any kind of swing as its just a delay, not an advance.
You caqn see these grooves iof you have something like styles RMX or any kind of rex loop player - look at the starts of the midi hits - they are all over the place on 1/2/4 bar cycles - thats what gives them their feel. I really like that in cubase and reason you can extract that groove feel and apply it as a template to something else.
Nothing to see here - move along!
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pabloaugustus
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:05 pm
- Location: humboldt county, ca
Almost all music from the African diaspora (brazilian, cuban), even if the basic pulse is in a duple grid, swings on the triplet grid, and actually has interlocks between both grids, exactly like Khazul's description of slowing the tempo and overlapping the swung 16ths with the straight. The interlock khazul is describing is 'two against three' (with silence on the second note of the three pattern) and it feels cool to play on your two hands. If you double in the straight notes in his example to be 32nds you get another common 'cross' in African based music, three against four. To play this one with both hands is a little harder; I was taught 'pass the f*cking butter' Try it, its a trip, then focus on the hand playing four and than the hand playing three....These kind of crosses are really cool because, with live musicians anyway the music locks into an incredibly locked feel that isn't going to budge. Why? Why didn't people start playing music in a 5 grid? I don't know, but before the crazy composers of this century (cage, he loved 5s!) all music made by humans has been in a duple or triple grid (western diaspora) or the overlapping of these grids (african diaspora: cuba, brazil, american jazz & some hiphop: remember new jack swing? I'm glad its gone...but it swung!). Its pretty interesting how the african music mixed with western based on how oppressed the drumming was among the african slaves brought to different places. In America they weren't allowed to drum at all and so the African influence is much more subtle. In Cuba the African influence is probably the most pure, and in Brazil it varies from south (less african) to north (more).Mesmer wrote:chrysalis33rpm wrote:OK, coming into focus.
@pablo:
. Maybe in tropical music it's commonplace to overlap trinary and binary for swing purposes, that I have to admin I Don't Know! But just wanted to say, you can swing with binary delays too.
Its in an interesting point you make and its what I've been thinking about....and I think in terms of perception it depends on tempo. If you delay the swung 16ths by a 32nd note @80bpm. You could say it sounds swung, and it probably would sound great in a full arrangement, but I can hear that it is on the duple grid, this kind of duple offset is called a shuffle feel. Now if you could place the offset 16th on the duple grid @64th note resolution or higher it would be much harder to perceieve the differences for sure, so, no, maybe the offset doesn't need to line up with the triplet grid to sound 'swung', but it helps!!
The reason I think it grooves harder @triplet division is that it will line up with one of the basic crosses I mentioned above, kind of circular reasons but its the best I can do! Today I'll be talking to a guy who wrote his PHD dissertation on African music...maybe he can shed some light.Khazul, nice breakdown bro!! I've always been so frustrated approximating swing with the % quantize and trying to define what '100% swing' means in different sequencers. I go by my ear but I always want to be able to quantify what I'm hearing! I like the techniques you describe for finding cool feels....in lieu of being able to place things specifically on the grid at a very high resolution playing with the global groove and swing amounts as per your suggestions can product some great feels.
Thinkpad 2.0GHz, 2GigsRam, MOTU Traveler, Live 6.05, BFD, Triton Extreme w/Moss, PC2R, K2000
Thanks for sticking it in the context of ethnic influences - suddenly what I discover on the technical side makes a whole load of real world sense nowpabloaugustus wrote:Khazul, nice breakdown bro!! I've always been so frustrated approximating swing with the % quantize and trying to define what '100% swing' means in different sequencers. I go by my ear but I always want to be able to quantify what I'm hearing! I like the techniques you describe for finding cool feels....in lieu of being able to place things specifically on the grid at a very high resolution playing with the global groove and swing amounts as per your suggestions can product some great feels.
Funny - I grew up in the middle east, so have allways been very aware of the native drum rhythm from middles eastern and to a lesser extent african music, but have never really been able to nail how the ryhthms actually interlock to the point where I can just load up and pattern grid and nail them perfectly first time through programming, so thanks for that. Even worse - I was taught to play a whole bunch of middles eastern rhythms on native drums in egypt, so I can play them, but micing up etc is such a pain in the arse.
The problem I have doing it by ear is that the brain's perception of what a rhythm is and how its feels seems to be hugely influenced by what kind of mood your in, what kind of day you have had, and basically whether that all fit in with the vibe of something your trying to write or even just listen to.
How many times have you been stressed after getting in from work or whatever, laid down something that seems nice and laid back, then come to it again later when you in a good mood, relaxed etc and though shit this is so aggressive and mechanical?
The other thing Ive noticed, is if you slow down the interlocks you describe, then you end up with some of the common interplays between kicks and bass lines, or open and closed HH etc in alot of dance music.
Nothing to see here - move along!
nebulae wrote:we ethnics know our groove...learn from us, white man, learn well.Patch wrote:Do you know what - these are the best answers to amy question I have ever asked here. Thanks a lot guys - you know your swing!!!
YEAH BWOY!!!
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Because I can't let things go , I'll add just one more bit:
When learning tropical music, teachers often go straight to the commonplace "cross" as you call it. A student will be introduced to this rythmitic backbone, and pushed to learn it "inside the soul", "hardwire" whatevermetaphore you have for being able to keep it going no matter what else your brain is tossed on top of it, no matter what your fingers are told to do. Thus when trying to swing your ensamble playing, you'll hear the "_Clave_" in your head and produce some Locked-down ("afincado") music.
@pablo,
thanks for that. A precise definition of "shuffle" has eluded me through the years ... untill now. It's so simple !! it makes sense. Thx!
now for fun's sake:
@pablo,
I take objection to you omitting Puerto Rico in your african influenced definitions!! Think calling a Sicillian Mobster, just a regular Italian Mobster... this is what I feel !!
@Kahzul and Co.
Feel honored to share this place with such cool people! Today for you, tomorrow for me!
-h
, I'll add just one more bit:When learning tropical music, teachers often go straight to the commonplace "cross" as you call it. A student will be introduced to this rythmitic backbone, and pushed to learn it "inside the soul", "hardwire" whatevermetaphore you have for being able to keep it going no matter what else your brain is tossed on top of it, no matter what your fingers are told to do. Thus when trying to swing your ensamble playing, you'll hear the "_Clave_" in your head and produce some Locked-down ("afincado") music.
@pablo,
thanks for that. A precise definition of "shuffle" has eluded me through the years ... untill now. It's so simple !! it makes sense. Thx!
now for fun's sake:
@pablo,
I take objection to you omitting Puerto Rico in your african influenced definitions!! Think calling a Sicillian Mobster, just a regular Italian Mobster... this is what I feel !!
@Kahzul and Co.
Feel honored to share this place with such cool people! Today for you, tomorrow for me!
-h
http://www.mesmero.net
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Hidden Driveways wrote:This doesn't answer your question at all, but I said it anyway simply for the joy of making a post.
Silly me,
still talking to the guy in the kitchen,
when all the hot chicks went to the pool.
still talking to the guy in the kitchen,
when all the hot chicks went to the pool.
http://www.mesmero.net
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Hidden Driveways wrote:This doesn't answer your question at all, but I said it anyway simply for the joy of making a post.
