The vocal holy grail

DrTroutHair · Post by **DrTroutHair** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:55 pm

Hi all
After several gigs where the sound guys couldn’t get my vocal level high enough in the mix, I’ve decided to bite the bullet and use a mixer with either onboard effects or a send/return and a reverb unit, instead of Ableton.
(To date I have been passing the mic via an Edirol Firewire FA101 into a mac, processing using Ableton reverb and passing back through the FA101 onto the PA desk. I’ve now used several very reputable sound guys that have really struggled to get enough volume at the mixing desk without ear bleeding feedback.)
Anyone got any thoughts on mixers. It would be ideal if the mixer had onboard reverb that way I could avoid the effects loop and reverb. I was looking at the Mackie DFX6. I was also looking at the DFX12 - for a slight increase in price it gives 12 channels rather than 6 (DFX6) and therefore holds a greater degree of flexibility for the future, should I wish to expand my set up.

Are there any brands of mixers with onboard effects I should avoid like the plague?

Is there another way I should consider doing this – I would rather not get more gear which I have to cart around from gig to gig.

Thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions.

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:05 pm

what mic?

snowtires · Post by **snowtires** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:45 pm

DrTroutHair wrote: Are there any brands of mixers with onboard effects I should avoid like the plague?

all of them

continuous · Post by **continuous** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:06 pm

For what it's worth I always struggled with my FA101. Sold it and bought a Traveler for not much more. I do remember having to really crank the input to get to a usable level but I'm still a bit of a noob and haven't really done any vocal stuff.

TroyP · Post by **TroyP** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:39 pm

Mackie mixers are awesome. In fact, they're so good that I might even trust the onboard effects, although generally I'd agree that it's way better to keep them separate from the board.

dancerchris · Post by **dancerchris** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:24 pm

Yeah, what mike. If you're getting feedback, it's more an issue of mike or mike placement/monitor placement causing feedback than Live/FA101 issue.

Is it something stageworthy like a shure sm-58? Cardiod Pattern? Turn everbody else down rather than the mike up so that the mix is good. Then bring up the whole thing. If you can't get it to stop feedback then try different mike or mike placement/monitor placement.

My $0.02

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:22 pm

I notice there is mention of reverb on the vocals. In a live situation reverb on a mike coming back to monitors is going to cause problems unless you are working with a big rig and a good team.
The monitor mix should be cleaned up of reverb and delay if you are getting feedback problems.
keep the reverb on the FOH if it is a core part of your sound, but get rid of it in the monitors.

you could get a little desk and send the FOH engineer two vocal channels , effected and dry, let him put both in the FOH and a mix of dry and wet in your monitor, that way he can back off the effects in the monitor if there are feedback problems.

failing that there are those feedback-killer boxes. I have an idea that Behringer do one, which would make it a cheap thing.

DrTroutHair · Post by **DrTroutHair** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:25 pm

Thanks for all your responses.
First up – mic. I tend to use the mics provided by the rig and to be honest I have never checked them out. So unfortunately the answer is – don’t know. At home I use an AKG 1000. Never had a problem with it. Would it help the live situation, if I used this mic on stage?

Second up – mixer
Yesterday I picked up a Yamaha MG82CX. I had a very quick go of it this morning and the Reverb seems non-existent. I use tons of reverb. I mean huge long tails. The mixer may be good but the Reverb doesn’t seem to come up to the mark. I’ll give it a proper go later tonight.

I was suspicious as to whether it was the FA101 or not. My gut reaction was to go for the Motu Ultralite, but financially it was out of my grasp. However, I am thinking of selling up and putting out for the more expensive Ultra.

My biggest frustration is that I can only really test out these things at a gig. In my home studio everything is fine. When I go into a proper big volume studio, again, no problems.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:17 pm

DrTroutHair wrote:Thanks for all your responses.
First up – mic. I tend to use the mics provided by the rig and to be honest I have never checked them out. So unfortunately the answer is – don’t know. At home I use an AKG 1000. Never had a problem with it. Would it help the live situation, if I used this mic on stage?

don't use the akg live,as I think it has a hypercardioid pattern. meaning the back is sensitive. IE, it will pick up the monitors too well which is not good. It may actually be classed as cardioid, but it is too sensitive for live IMO.

SM58 or similar does the job most times and that's what most rigs will have as stock, dont cover the base of the grill(to avoid feedback) and get close to it for the proximity effect to kick in.

_vrsn · Post by **_vrsn** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:50 pm

Sounds like you should have a look at the VoiceTone Correct from TC-Helicon:

http://www.voicetonepedals.com/correct.html

It's specifically made for pulling your vocals out of the muck and adapting to various live environments.

Mesmer · Post by **Mesmer** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:10 pm

Hello friend.
Here are my thoughts:
If it is an issue of level, and only that, maybe you should think about snatching a Pre-Amp. It's just a hassle bringing a mixer to the gig AND setting up the routes and levels... It's just a real PITA.

Good luck,
-h

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:23 am

I would suggest to you that you give your sound engineer a split signal of your vocals... one unprocessed and one with FX.... you'll have to work out how to do this with your particular soundcard.

as for 'getting enough vocal in the mix... try turning stage volume down and/or singing louder.... and if that doesn't work... get another sound engineer.

ohiowa · Post by **ohiowa** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:50 pm

DrTroutHair wrote: I use tons of reverb. I mean huge long tails. The mixer may be good but the Reverb doesn’t seem to come up to the mark. I’ll give it a proper go later tonight.

that right there is your problem. has anyone ever seen BrightBlack Morning Light live? Holy Shit, the singer lays gobs of delay and reverb on his voice and mumbles into it then gets mad that he can't hear his voice.

I mixed them once and someone in the back of the room yelled "turn up the vocals" and that was picked up by his mic better than his own voice. It ended up going into the delay/reverb and being louder than the words to the song the dude was mumbling.

my advice for you if you have to have effects on your voice to sing properly is to get inear monitors so the feedback problems go away. other than that a split clean/fx vocal is the only realistic solution (each channel can be EQ'd differently too). With all that reverb on stage you're just creating standing waves.

D K · Post by **D K** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:10 pm

you are fighting a really tough battle...
my thoughts are to do the processing at the house mixer, where it can be done properly. or perhaps take a split and give the house 1 normal, dry vocal send and a second send with effects only(either mono or stereo) to be added. this way, you can eq each and get correct gainstages as well.

The vocal holy grail

The vocal holy grail

Re: The vocal holy grail