Automatically powered plug-ins

[Alex Reynolds]

Here's what I mean:

When a Track doesn't have any sound coming out of it, then there should be the option where Live will shut down plug-ins automatically.

When sound comes back through that Track, the plug-ins should then come back on.

In my mind, this would be an immense help for fading in various Scenes while not overloading the CPU.

This comes up because a Track's plug-ins will use CPU even if there is no sound going through them -- this is inefficient.

The idea is to just dial down the volume on a track or series of Tracks, and their plug-ins shut down automatically. This frees up CPU for fading in other Tracks that have their own set of plug-ins.

This would solve the problem where we have to run multiple copies of Live to be able to crossfade Scenes, and additionally, would require [b]no[/b] alteration to Live's interface, beyond a preference setting.

So, is this a good or bad idea?

-Alex

[FrankH]

Hi Alex,

As far as i know... Live is already optimized in this way.
BTW fading down, cutting track-output, doesn't shutdown the plug-ins.
But when you cut the track-input, plug-ins WILL shutdown after the audiolevel becomes beneath a certhain threshold.

Keep up the good thinking

Peace,

f

[Alex Reynolds]

...just tried it now, and my Scene uses 40-45% CPU even with the volumes to all the Tracks turned down.

Like I said, this is not efficient. Plug-ins should only use CPU time when processing sound...

-Alex

[os]

Live already has the optimisation that when no audio is playing on a track, the plugins are turned off.
But this is *not* the same as what you want, which is for the track to turn off when you turn the fader right down. But this is not possible - consider this: if you have an audio loop with just a snare drum once every bar, and the effect on that track is a delay with lots of feedback. You'd expect to be able to move the fader up & down & still hear the delay properly when you fade the channel up. To do this, the effect has to keep running even when the fader is down.

[atom_b]

Hmm, guys... I think you're wrong. The optimization already implemented is for the tracks, clips and scenes that are actually not playing only.

For a test: Just put the (quite consuming) Live-reverb into one track and trigger a clip this track. You can easily read from the cpu-meter that there is no difference referring to the about 10% the reverb is eating up when the track stops playing. Just the load of the track itself is taken from the processer.

Else this would mean you should have no more than the initial 2% processor load when no track is playing, but this is obviously not the case.

So the initial feature proposal is correct, and I think it's a very good idea to have something like that.

[os]

Right, enough guessing - I have Live running now.
No tracks or effects - 4% CPU
1 track running - 7%
1 track running with reverb - 26%
stop track, still with reverb - 5%

Hurrah! I win.

[Alex Reynolds]

I think I found a bug!

Using Live 1.5.2 under Mac OS X 10.2, using built-in sound adapter:

No sound: 4%

Sound playing: 6%

Sound playing, with Reverb on ("First Class"): 44%
Sound turned off, with Reverb: 6%

Sound playing, with Reverb + non-Live plug-in: 46%
Sound turned off, with Reverb + non-Live VST plug-in: 45%

So the problem is that other VST plug-ins keep the Live plug-ins fired up even when a Track is stopped.

And my original point stands that a plug-in (Live or VST) should not be processing silence.

-Alex

[atom_b]

Hurrah! I win.

Damn! You're right! Maybe I was stuck with my brain in some send track all the time before, and there was a delay-effect running...

[os]

I think I found a bug!

I think you're right! Just tried the same thing, with similar results.

And my original point stands that a plug-in (Live or VST) should not be processing silence.

True, and they don't (Live plugins anyway).
But there's a difference between processing silence, and processing sound but then being faded out.

os.

[Alex Reynolds]

I see what you mean, with respect to something like a snare or other percussion sample, where there might be a gap of silence between a sound. I can see how that would be a problem.

There must be some way to calculate the dB of a sample, and if Live knows where it is in playing a sample, know if a sound is coming or not, and then make a decision whether to keep a plug-in turn on or off.

It should be possible if Reverb can apply a Predelay effect.

To me, the easiest solution would be for Live to say, if the fader is at -INF dB, then the plug-ins should not use any processor time.

-Alex

[Alex Reynolds]

Hmm.. one more thought:

If a sound is being faded out, then add a variable number of seconds of extra time for an effect to do its work after the fader is at -INF dB and
[b]then[/b] turn it off.

-Alex

[bigbass]

hmmm,

adding xtra time before the fx is cutoff seems to be complicated: how can u predict the lenght of the fx? if an delay is in heavy feedback, for example??? or reverb with infinit reverb time (like a freeze...)

i don't think this could work...

but:
FREEING UP CPU-LOAD would be a GREAT thing, whereever possible [as i'm live on a pismo pb] :)

bassy regards,
benjamin

[Alex Reynolds]

In a freeze situation, there's no need for input as the reverb is "frozen", processing the same echoes.

Anyhow, I'm imagining -- for example -- a slider widget that adjusts from 0 to 8 beats in 1/8 beat increments, that says, if you have this feature turned on, Live will allow effects-processed sound out of this Track for that specified duration of time.

After that, the Track is "turned off", which then turns off the plug-ins and gives CPU resources back to the user.

But then, in order for this to work, the plug-in problem I filed in the Bug list needs to be fixed.

Doing something like this doesn't require platform-specific optimization, and can be set as a preference for the user to turn on or off, so why not consider it?

-Alex

[bigbass]

In a freeze situation, there's no need for input as the reverb is "frozen", processing the same echoes.

hi Alex,

hmmm,

how can u hear the reverb when it is shut down for cpu-reasons??? (regardless of the input, which is, as you say, not necessary for an frozen reverb...)

but, don't get me wrong, as i tried to say (xcuse my non-native english...)
"FREE AS MUCH CPU-POWER AS POSSIBLE, IF POSSIBLE!!!"


bassy regards,
benjamin

[ischo didn't log in]

you should check out which of your trillions of plugins have this behaviour and email their programmers to give you the "de-normaled" versions of their plugs. i had a problem with destroyfx's transverb thingy, it consuming ALL of my cpu load in stop-mode. that was pretty silly , so i emailed my prob to them and they sent me another version which runs just fine.