Live audio quality?

[3phase]

I just wanted to open another soundquality thread but add instead to this one..

I cant really understand why ableton dont gets a grip on theire soundquality problem.. maybe its because they prefer to deny it instead to discuss it?
might be only ocur in certain setups... but this never gets worked out when the problem is denied...

But to tell you the truth...the bad quality of the ableton mix bus is so much common sense now in the scene that its probably a general problem and not only related to certain setups...

Question... why does an audio file with warp engine off and faders in zero position is 3 db louder than the same audiofile played direct by quicktime (on mac) ?

Is this to cosmetical overcome the reduced soundquality because louder signals apper to sound nicer for rough listeners?

Why is the sound quality in live is improoved when i avoid the master output an go thru an individal output..avoiding the internal mixbus this way?


I would expect an audiofile played back in unity gain settings without warp to be bit transparent passed thru to the main mix outputs...

Why is a sophisticated company like ableton not able to give this basic functionality?

Of cause the problem gets worse when we mix tracks...


Its a pitty that producing with live is such a compromise soundwise...
All the other features make the program pretty comprehensiv...

I got the idea that the audio quality might be reduced intentionally to let theire warp engine appear in a better light... because without warping just switching on the warp sounds remarkable close to an unwarped file...
you have a bigger quality difference between live unwarped and the quicktime player or an audio editor than between live internal warp on or off...

would be extreme..but after so many years without having this basic problem adressed it started to seem as a possible explanation...
If this is the case..please ableton forget about such cosmetics and let the
unwarped audio playback bit transparent... if you have the opinion that this is the case than please allow the user to find the setting where this is the case...when your faders are on zero its clearly not the case.. and because we cant enter precise values there is no real unity gain in ableton live...

However..this wont really help because there is probably something screwed or underdeveloped in your audio engine...
Steinberg and emagic was able to improove theier sound quality continously and advertized that...
Ableton claims from day one to be perfect...says there is no need to change..but is changing little things in the background all the time..
The audio engine in live 6 sounds slightly better than before...but you dont mention improovemments because you would have to admit that there is problem... thats a shitty politics somehow


In ideal ableton would buy the melodyne engine and combine the 2 programs...

there are companys that know better how to deal with digital audio but dont have such a cool conception as ableton live...
just buy the knowledge... Live is a big seller...should be possible


PS:to ableton... before the big denieng starts again...
# when you think i am wrong you defenetly have a problem in certain setups... . i know my speakers and i know my ears...

maybe the adaption to the core audio engine of osx is faulty?

havent had the chance yet to check on pc based Ableton systems...
...
when you pay me i find out where the problem sits..but for now i would say your internal gainstructure works with too much overflow error...
thats at least how it sounds..theese a bit tired sound...

[Robert Henke]

I just wanted to open another soundquality thread but add instead to this one..

I cant really understand why ableton dont gets a grip on theire soundquality problem.. maybe its because they prefer to deny it instead to discuss it?
might be only ocur in certain setups... but this never gets worked out when the problem is denied...

Are you completely nuts? Have you been reading any of my posts ???

But to tell you the truth...the bad quality of the ableton mix bus is so much common sense now in the scene that its probably a general problem and not only related to certain setups...

Question... why does an audio file with warp engine off and faders in zero position is 3 db louder than the same audiofile played direct by quicktime (on mac) ?

Is this to cosmetical overcome the reduced soundquality because louder signals apper to sound nicer for rough listeners?

Sorry, you must have been smoking the wrong weed. zero dB in soundfile is zero dB out from soudcard. period.

Why is the sound quality in live is improoved when i avoid the master output an go thru an individal output..avoiding the internal mixbus this way?


I would expect an audiofile played back in unity gain settings without warp to be bit transparent passed thru to the main mix outputs...

Which is the case.

Why is a sophisticated company like ableton not able to give this basic functionality?

Why is no one of those complaining about audio quality capeable of providing any example?

Of cause the problem gets worse when we mix tracks...

Sure, mixing is a science.

Its a pitty that producing with live is such a compromise soundwise...
All the other features make the program pretty comprehensiv...

...oh dude.....

I got the idea that the audio quality might be reduced intentionally to let theire warp engine appear in a better light... because without warping just switching on the warp sounds remarkable close to an unwarped file...
you have a bigger quality difference between live unwarped and the quicktime player or an audio editor than between live internal warp on or off...

Yes. And world was created in six days by morons

would be extreme..but after so many years without having this basic problem adressed it started to seem as a possible explanation...

READ MY FUCKIN POSTS

If this is the case..please ableton forget about such cosmetics and let the
unwarped audio playback bit transparent... if you have the opinion that this is the case than please allow the user to find the setting where this is the case...when your faders are on zero its clearly not the case.. and because we cant enter precise values there is no real unity gain in ableton live...

Type in the vaule "0" and you will have unitiy gain if this makes your music better.

However..this wont really help because there is probably something screwed or underdeveloped in your audio engine...

READ MY FUCKIN POSTS

Steinberg and emagic was able to improove theier sound quality continously and advertized that...

READ MY FUCKIN POSTS

Ableton claims from day one to be perfect...says there is no need to change..but is changing little things in the background all the time..

dude, can you please try to read and understand what i wrote at the beginning of this thread? yes?

yes,
The audio engine in live 6 sounds slightly better than before...but you dont mention improovemments because you would have to admit that there is problem... thats a shitty politics somehow

READ MY FUCKIN POSTS

In ideal ableton would buy the melodyne engine and combine the 2 programs...

there are companys that know better how to deal with digital audio but dont have such a cool conception as ableton live...
just buy the knowledge... Live is a big seller...should be possible

PS:to ableton... before the big denieng starts again...
# when you think i am wrong you defenetly have a problem in certain setups... . i know my speakers and i know my ears...


maybe the adaption to the core audio engine of osx is faulty?

havent had the chance yet to check on pc based Ableton systems...
...


when you pay me i find out where the problem sits..

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but for now i would say your internal gainstructure works with too much overflow error...
thats at least how it sounds..theese a bit tired sound...

Sorry, but this is pretty high up on the bullshitmeter my friend!
If I wouldn't know better I would assume you were hired by some competitor to flame here....

Robert

[3phase]

. So, i can just repeat what i allready said: a) Live performs not worse then the average competitor b) this will not keeping us from making it better, and results of this will be part of the next major release. and c) i bet it will not stop people complaining.

And i have some shockng news:

- mp3 sounds worse than Live
- each club sounds worse
- each home stereo
- CDs come with 96dB dynamic range
- vinly record players completly distroy the input signal.
- mobile phone speakes cut below 300 Hz
- speakers are nonlinear
- mic preamps distort
- air with a temperature below absolute zero intrduces varying latency and all sorts of comb filter / flanging effects.

making music under those conditions is pretty impossible.

Robert

Just found that crap again... there are people that measure everything you want...use your ears.

and tell me when you play a track of complex audio in live without warp that this sounds the same as in a pro daw or even just the quicktime player...


i am allways shocked by this statements because they come from people that do good music and should know about sound...


there are 2 different realitys around ...

either ableton and theier involved peolple are not telling the truth for professional reasons...
or we have a bug here...

I hear the degeneration in live clearly..just replay a protools projekt in live 1:1 8-12 tracks...unity gain...

a difference like day and night..sorry...who dont gets that has tomatos on the ears

[Johnisfaster]

. So, i can just repeat what i allready said: a) Live performs not worse then the average competitor b) this will not keeping us from making it better, and results of this will be part of the next major release. and c) i bet it will not stop people complaining.

And i have some shockng news:

- mp3 sounds worse than Live
- each club sounds worse
- each home stereo
- CDs come with 96dB dynamic range
- vinly record players completly distroy the input signal.
- mobile phone speakes cut below 300 Hz
- speakers are nonlinear
- mic preamps distort
- air with a temperature below absolute zero intrduces varying latency and all sorts of comb filter / flanging effects.

making music under those conditions is pretty impossible.

Robert

Just found that crap again... there are people that measure everything you want...use your ears.

and tell me when you play a track of complex audio in live without warp that this sounds the same as in a pro daw or even just the quicktime player...


i am allways shocked by this statements because they come from people that do good music and should know about sound...


there are 2 different realitys around ...

either ableton and theier involved peolple are not telling the truth for professional reasons...
or we have a bug here...

I hear the degeneration in live clearly..just replay a protools projekt in live 1:1 8-12 tracks...unity gain...

a difference like day and night..sorry...who dont gets that has tomatos on the ears

start from the beginning of this thread and read all of henke's posts then you'll realise you're missing alot of information.

[Heinz Graaf]

henke says you cant hear it
dude here says he hears it
whats to read about?

[3phase]

. So, i can just repeat what i allready said: a) Live performs not worse then the average competitor b) this will not keeping us from making it better, and results of this will be part of the next major release. and c) i bet it will not stop people complaining.

Robert

ok..i get it now...we have to read this between the lines like in the former east part of germany...


a) what is the avarage competitor? probably not nuendo and protools...no high end workstations?

and dont performs worse but sounds worse?

b) the result will be part of the next update..so they finaly admit indirect that they have a problem..in older statements they claim that it is perfect..
as good as 32bit floating point can be..
Now they made it to make perfect better... Aha...

ok..at least they are adressing it now...
its just a bit pissing of that people like me that mailed them about the problem for years was lied into the face...as i said ..bad politics...
dont confuse the amateur user..aslong we dont admit they dont hear it...


c) when you finaly get it wright it will stop people complaining...


these politicans talk you use is horrible and a disgrace. a way of not telling the truth by telling one truth..
pure polemik..

why do you do that? cant you engage somebody with less high reputation in the scene to made such missleading statements?
bad!

[tylenol]

- air with a temperature below absolute zero intrduces varying latency and all sorts of comb filter / flanging effects.

Any sound at all below absolute zero would be pretty impressive

[Robert Henke]

- air with a temperature below absolute zero intrduces varying latency and all sorts of comb filter / flanging effects.

Any sound at all below absolute zero would be pretty impressive

yes. i was typing too fast... it will be fixed in some update.

[Heinz Graaf]

. So, i can just repeat what i allready said: a) Live performs not worse then the average competitor b) this will not keeping us from making it better, and results of this will be part of the next major release. and c) i bet it will not stop people complaining.

Robert

ok..i get it now...we have to read this between the lines like in the former east part of germany...


a) what is the avarage competitor? probably not nuendo and protools...no high end workstations?

and dont performs worse but sounds worse?

b) the result will be part of the next update..so they finaly admit indirect that they have a problem..in older statements they claim that it is perfect..
as good as 32bit floating point can be..
Now they made it to make perfect better... Aha...

ok..at least they are adressing it now...
its just a bit pissing of that people like me that mailed them about the problem for years was lied into the face...as i said ..bad politics...
dont confuse the amateur user..aslong we dont admit they dont hear it...


c) when you finaly get it wright it will stop people complaining...


these politicans talk you use is horrible and a disgrace. a way of not telling the truth by telling one truth..
pure polemik..

why do you do that? cant you engage somebody with less high reputation in the scene to made such missleading statements?
bad!

From what ive read I think Henke says Live has a problem with the little details but they are not hearable to us. I thnk this is what he said on the first and second page of this loooong topic.

[3phase]

they are not hearable to us ? ..there is nothing measurable in audio that is not hearable...its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...

and yes..its about the details... its subtile...

[Tone Deft]

its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...

absolutely incorrect.

[Robert Henke]

Mister 3phase, as far as i can see, my reputation is based on exactly doing what i think i need to do, and also by saying what i mean. And maybe to some extend it is based on the fact that i know a few things because i spend lots of time listeniing to what other people have to say and try to learn.

If you are not capeable of understanding what i have to say it is not my problem.

You will not get it, even if I reapeat it a million times, but here we go again:

1. Live does'nt do anything "wrong" audiowise.
2. There are many ways to do specific details and they have a tiny influence on sound. These details can be improved by research and this is what all serious compaines including us do.

This is called technological progress. It is not called lying, so please stop telling that we lie to our customers. *This* is inappropriate use of language, not my statements.

Robert

[Johnisfaster]

from what I understand no one ever said complex mode sounded perfect. it's understood that it doesn't!

the only warp modes that sound perfect AT ORIGINAL TEMPO are beats mode and pitch mode. if you change the tempo IT WILL SOUND BAD IN ANY DAW because no daw can change a wav files tempo and keep the sound perfect.

ableton isn't playing this game like "no matter what you do to an audio file it's going to sound perfect" but you have to actually read a little bit so you understand that what you're doing is making stuff sound bad.

[ilia]

I dont know what else I can say really

a/ make clip
b/ divide clip by deleting bars
c/ delete divided clip
d/ there is the little fucker

i dont know if i have hit BACKSPACE or the euro sign inbetween. Live makes annoying clips and it does it often.

sorry, but i tried serveral times with all sorts of scenarios and cannot reproduce the problem.

what exactly do you mean with "make a clip" ? MIDI or Audio? dragging from browser into arranger? is it warped, with or with out fade, how long is the clip?
with devide clip by deleting bars you mean cut out songtime or something else?
what OS and what exact version of Live are you using?

is there a szenario where you have a few reproduceable steps that 100% create this bug?

believe me, if this bug would be so easy to reproduce it would have been fixed years ago.

Robert

I just wanted to chime in and say that I too have experienced the little residual audio clip bug many times and reported it to Ableton. It is not infrequent, but somewhat difficult to reproduce with the exact sequence of steps because it comes up sporadically during editing in the arrange. I'll try to send a more detailed report next time this happens.

Also, as a general suggestion, I think it might be more productive to discuss bugs in the bugs section of the forum rather than send individual reports to bugs@ableton, because discussion among users can help determine the exact scenarios when the bugs manifest.

[Tone Deft]

its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...

re: warp modes...

discussing interpolation techniques with someone who would make the statement above is pointless.

warping is an inherently noisy process because you're interpolating data, adding data in where it should be, the new data, is by definition noise. it's also an imperfect science across the board.

but this isn't a warping issue, this is an issue about Live apparently sounding awful compared to any decent DAW. I'd love to know Live's faults, it's good to know where you tools are weak but these guys aren't the most educated DAW users, they're just loud and rude.

I suspect this thread to go on for as long as THEY can keep screaming.