the kind of person that thinks that the phase cancellation test doesn't prove the files sound the same. ha!Tone Deft wrote:re: warp modes...3phase wrote:its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...
discussing interpolation techniques with someone who would make the statement above is pointless.
Live audio quality?
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Johnisfaster
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It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.
the people arguing on the side of the OP don't know what a phase cancellation test is.Johnisfaster wrote:the kind of person that thinks that the phase cancellation test doesn't prove the files sound the same. ha!Tone Deft wrote:re: warp modes...3phase wrote:its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...
discussing interpolation techniques with someone who would make the statement above is pointless.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
re: warp techniques. Here's a suggestion to quell some of the complainers' worries: why not put an auto-bypass for complex mode when the song tempo=original tempo of the clip? I don't really see what the purpose is of hearing those artifacts this nominally highest quality mode at the original tempo.
nobody provided a proof? of cause you cant nail it with a normal freq response measuerment.. harmonic spectra of distortion would be more intersresting..
but its easy to proof that life is less good than the avarage bit transparent audio editor.
or maybe this is no proof because you either hear it or not...
For people that like to find out themself... get a cd with complex audio...
a good classical recording... a techno track with extensiv complex hi hat lines...
listen to the 2 examples in an qualified audio editor as spark, wavelab or similar pro produkt...
have the files in live..warp engine off... unity gain...
listen to the high hats...listen behind the hi hats.. listen to the reverbtails..the spaciness...
compare the editor with ableton live by concentrating on the details
do this with good phase aligned monitors of cause on a correct volume
Are you able to hear the slightest difference?
If you do ableton lost..there should be no difference
I do hear the difference on my system every day i give ableton a try again, as it happned today..and i got stopped by the phenomen again because i just didnt liked the sound of it...working in logic is no fun..and the sound is not prfect aswell..but much better than doing the same things in life...
When only listening to a single file the difference is very little... like comparing ad converters...
but enough to show that there is a problem and to explain what happens in a production with many tracks..,
maybe some others like to perform this simple test and report their findings..i dont doubt that many wont hear a difference... but trained soundengineers should be able to get one..at least on a similar system
my system
hammerfall multiface...titanium powerbook.. fullrange cinema speaker system... so no crossovers..
but its easy to proof that life is less good than the avarage bit transparent audio editor.
or maybe this is no proof because you either hear it or not...
For people that like to find out themself... get a cd with complex audio...
a good classical recording... a techno track with extensiv complex hi hat lines...
listen to the 2 examples in an qualified audio editor as spark, wavelab or similar pro produkt...
have the files in live..warp engine off... unity gain...
listen to the high hats...listen behind the hi hats.. listen to the reverbtails..the spaciness...
compare the editor with ableton live by concentrating on the details
do this with good phase aligned monitors of cause on a correct volume
Are you able to hear the slightest difference?
If you do ableton lost..there should be no difference
I do hear the difference on my system every day i give ableton a try again, as it happned today..and i got stopped by the phenomen again because i just didnt liked the sound of it...working in logic is no fun..and the sound is not prfect aswell..but much better than doing the same things in life...
When only listening to a single file the difference is very little... like comparing ad converters...
but enough to show that there is a problem and to explain what happens in a production with many tracks..,
maybe some others like to perform this simple test and report their findings..i dont doubt that many wont hear a difference... but trained soundengineers should be able to get one..at least on a similar system
my system
hammerfall multiface...titanium powerbook.. fullrange cinema speaker system... so no crossovers..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
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Robert Henke
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am
- Location: Berlin
ilia wrote:re: warp techniques. Here's a suggestion to quell some of the complainers' worries: why not put an auto-bypass for complex mode when the song tempo=original tempo of the clip? I don't really see what the purpose is of hearing those artifacts this nominally highest quality mode at the original tempo.
this is already implemented, since live 4 or earlier. which is kind of ironic, given the statements of some folks here. the condition for it is: a) no automation of song tempo, b) original pitch, only one warpmaker in clip with tempo = songtempo.
in this case, warping is completly disabled. we tested this again and again.....
since Live 4....
R.
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Johnisfaster
- Posts: 7251
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:34 am
- Contact:
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Robert Henke
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am
- Location: Berlin
phase cancelation by listening or a real 0 bit value outcome?Johnisfaster wrote:the kind of person that thinks that the phase cancellation test doesn't prove the files sound the same. ha!Tone Deft wrote:re: warp modes...3phase wrote:its the other way around..there are things hearable that are nut measurable...at least not yet...
discussing interpolation techniques with someone who would make the statement above is pointless.
two systems can have total differnt distortion spectra by perfect phase cancelation...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
Robert Henke wrote:i cannot stop, sorry:
3phase: how shall i take you serious, if you say you have a cinema speaker system with no crossovers ???????????
R.
I too have been wondering what that's about, it's probably what he read in the Bose pamphlet.3phase - if you work in a studio, please take this up with a studio engineer, a real geek who knows numbers and can measure your sound system. I get the impression you're more on the art side than the science side.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
listening doesn't mean much compared to measuring with numbers.3phase wrote:phase cancelation by listening or a real 0 bit value outcome?Johnisfaster wrote:the kind of person that thinks that the phase cancellation test doesn't prove the files sound the same. ha!Tone Deft wrote: re: warp modes...
discussing interpolation techniques with someone who would make the statement above is pointless.
two systems can have total differnt distortion spectra by perfect phase cancelation...
you listen when you have a system that's as good as you can get it, then you set it up for listeners to see if they can hear what sounds best. you NEVER do design or system testing by listening, NEVER.
it's just bits, 1s and 0s and it's only audio, really slow signals. a bit by bit comparison is the best test, then analysis of the residual.
3phase you should realize that this is a WORLDWIDE forum and there are people of ALL levels of knowledge on the forum.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Robert Henke wrote:i cannot stop, sorry:
3phase: how shall i take you serious, if you say you have a cinema speaker system with no crossovers ???????????
R.
again stupid polemiks
fullrange speakers from the 50´s are a perfect choice to do qualitativ listening..
they have a 110 db response are vers sensetiv you hear perfectly any change in the signal chain on these kind of speakers...
because its only one speaker there are no crossover phase canclations...
you hear things in records like the conductors stick that just disappear on normal 2way or 3 way systems...
actually you should know that vintage cinema speakers are high regarded in the jazz scene because of the detail they provide...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
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Johnisfaster
- Posts: 7251
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:34 am
- Contact:
why don't you take a moment to explain exactly what you're doing step by step and then render the 2 audio examples so we can both hear what you're hearing? take some time out of your complaining to actually show us some real audio examples.3phase wrote:Robert Henke wrote:i cannot stop, sorry:
3phase: how shall i take you serious, if you say you have a cinema speaker system with no crossovers ???????????
R.
again stupid polemiks
fullrange speakers from the 50´s are a perfect choice to do qualitativ listening..
they have a 110 db response are vers sensetiv you hear perfectly any change in the signal chain on these kind of speakers...
because its only one speaker there are no crossover phase canclations...
you hear things in records like the conductors stick that just disappear on normal 2way or 3 way systems...
actually you should know that vintage cinema speakers are high regarded in the jazz scene because of the detail they provide...
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.
Tone Deft wrote:Robert Henke wrote:i cannot stop, sorry:
3phase: how shall i take you serious, if you say you have a cinema speaker system with no crossovers ???????????
R.
3phase - if you work in a studio, please take this up with a studio engineer, a real geek who knows numbers and can measure your sound system. I get the impression you're more on the art side than the science side.
I develop modifikations for mixing desks and fx devices i need to hear the sound a component like a capaciator is giving...
theese parts are expensiv..i dont use them when a change in the circuit dont makes a clear better and not just a different sound.
Therefore i choosed a speker system thats not telling to much an own story..
belive me..the speaker are allwright..
and i belive that many measurements will tell that everything is allwright..
but i ve an educated opinion and everytime i give live a try it ends with the same results..it sounds lame..
and it shouldnt...
whatever the reason is... i can hear it...and thats enough proof for me..
i will buy a pc wortkstation in a while..i am currious if there is a difference..
even when ableton like usual denys the possebility because they are so perfect and never do mistakes...
i can imagine a mac problem... at least i see a mac related pattern in my personal surrounding when it comes to ableton live soundquality discussions..
this can be caused because all pros in germany are on mac..they are usually ,more critical...or its related to the handling of the osx audio engine...
whatever the reason is.. i better wait the update before waisting to much time..if abletons knows they wont tell us...
And if they dont know by now they never will find it anyway...
I work in the pro audio industry since 15 years..i built a handfull big surround studios and had to measure and protocoll whole tv stations..
i am an audio pro... i trust my ears..they never let me down sofar..when they tell me rther is a problem ther is allways a problem..i just have to find the way to measure the problem...but sofar i allways found that way and proofed my ears to be wright..
In case of ableton a propper proof would be to expensiv..but i am absolutley posetiv that its possible to find something.. i am not haluzinating
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
I've been using live since version 1 and it has been my my main DAW since version 3. I have definitely noticed an improvement in sound quality from back then.
Clearly, ableton are improving it all the time. As has been said you need to know what to do (and more importantly what not to do) to get the best end results. I refer mainly to warp engine, fade and automation.
I remember that there used to be some kind of behind the scenes compressor on the sends that used to prevent you going over 0db. Perhaps for the same reason ableton decided to use this, the ability to send from a send to itself is turned off by default. The old send behaviour must have affected sound quality but seems no longer to be there.
There used to be no delay compensation but when they added it and you loaded up a track from the previous version (without delay compensation turned on), it would be far more out of time than when played in said previous version. Again this meant that sound quality in the old version must have been at the expense of latency compared to the newer version (or the audio engine was optimised further in the update).
The only problem I still have with Live's audio quality is the zipper noise (or jitter or glitches, whatever you want to call it) when using fast automation slopes. this is most noticable when you are gating volume levels on bass sounds. Especially swept sine kicks and bass with little high frequency information in there. This is so bad in fact that I render and open the file in an audio editor to apply these fades as part of my workflow.
If you don't know about these idiosyncrasies then the cumulative effect by the time you've finished your track is definitely going to leave you dissappointed!
The main thing about live is that it's so fucking cool to work with. You can try out and discard 10 ideas in the same time it takes to try one of them out in other daws. And of course, as you make more and more tracks, your production improves (and hence sound quality/clarity) in leaps and bounds far and above any issues you may or may not have with Lives audio quality.
Use it well and there is no reason to believe that your track would sound better or worse than in any other DAW.
As has been mentioned before in similar threads there used to be reason to believe that logic was cleaner above 12Khz but Live was more "punchy" (in a good way!) around 700Hz (I think it was 700 anyway) and though I have heard mastering engineers comment on the clarity around 14khz in tracks mixed in live, this is most likely due to the affect of warping or even the source audio. I used to believe that Logic was indeed better and my friend that uses Live as his main DAW still thinks Cubase sounded better. But we love using live and warping audio and it is probably this that is the culprit!
As for those little rogue orphan clips that appear when cutting time? Yes i get them too from time to time and they are very hard to reproduce, maybe one day we will know what's causing them!
sorry for the long post, bored as fook tonight
Clearly, ableton are improving it all the time. As has been said you need to know what to do (and more importantly what not to do) to get the best end results. I refer mainly to warp engine, fade and automation.
I remember that there used to be some kind of behind the scenes compressor on the sends that used to prevent you going over 0db. Perhaps for the same reason ableton decided to use this, the ability to send from a send to itself is turned off by default. The old send behaviour must have affected sound quality but seems no longer to be there.
There used to be no delay compensation but when they added it and you loaded up a track from the previous version (without delay compensation turned on), it would be far more out of time than when played in said previous version. Again this meant that sound quality in the old version must have been at the expense of latency compared to the newer version (or the audio engine was optimised further in the update).
The only problem I still have with Live's audio quality is the zipper noise (or jitter or glitches, whatever you want to call it) when using fast automation slopes. this is most noticable when you are gating volume levels on bass sounds. Especially swept sine kicks and bass with little high frequency information in there. This is so bad in fact that I render and open the file in an audio editor to apply these fades as part of my workflow.
If you don't know about these idiosyncrasies then the cumulative effect by the time you've finished your track is definitely going to leave you dissappointed!
The main thing about live is that it's so fucking cool to work with. You can try out and discard 10 ideas in the same time it takes to try one of them out in other daws. And of course, as you make more and more tracks, your production improves (and hence sound quality/clarity) in leaps and bounds far and above any issues you may or may not have with Lives audio quality.
Use it well and there is no reason to believe that your track would sound better or worse than in any other DAW.
As has been mentioned before in similar threads there used to be reason to believe that logic was cleaner above 12Khz but Live was more "punchy" (in a good way!) around 700Hz (I think it was 700 anyway) and though I have heard mastering engineers comment on the clarity around 14khz in tracks mixed in live, this is most likely due to the affect of warping or even the source audio. I used to believe that Logic was indeed better and my friend that uses Live as his main DAW still thinks Cubase sounded better. But we love using live and warping audio and it is probably this that is the culprit!
As for those little rogue orphan clips that appear when cutting time? Yes i get them too from time to time and they are very hard to reproduce, maybe one day we will know what's causing them!
sorry for the long post, bored as fook tonight