Bass guitar recording - tips?

DrXparaMental · Post by **DrXparaMental** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:37 pm

Tone Deft wrote:you don't need XLR.

the stealthplug might not be ideal, check it closely, it's a guitar plug on one end (mono 1/4") and a USB connector on the other end. in the middle there's a black plastic bulge that is the sound card, you plug headphones into that. in a band situation you'd have your output from Live coming out of the black box in the steathplug cable, kinda clumsy but you could tape the leads together.

You are correct that you do not HAVE to use or positively NEED XLR connections, but when you are comparing balanced to unbalanced connections, there is no comparison in terms of audio quality. XLR sounds MUCH better. When it comes to recording that is about as bassic as it gets.

borg · Post by **borg** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:47 pm

you know there's also balanced jacks as well?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:54 pm

borg wrote:you know there's also balanced jacks as well?

that's what DrXparaMental is talking about, and I disagree that the sound difference is that big of a deal, but whatever.

borg · Post by **borg** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:41 pm

yes, TD, probably an internet misunderstanding. it sounds to me DrXparaMental says XLR is better than 1/4" jacks, to whick i replied that jack can be balanced as well, and there is no difference between them.

and yes, unless an unbalanced (typical: instrument) cable runs for some distance along a bunch of powercords/appliances, the difference should be marginal.
of course you could treat yourself to a nice 24 carat gold cable for max performance

DrXparaMental · Post by **DrXparaMental** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:54 pm

borg wrote:yes, TD, probably an internet misunderstanding. it sounds to me DrXparaMental says XLR is better than 1/4" jacks, to whick i replied that jack can be balanced as well, and there is no difference between them.

and yes, unless an unbalanced (typical: instrument) cable runs for some distance along a bunch of powercords/appliances, the difference should be marginal.
of course you could treat yourself to a nice 24 carat gold cable for max performance

The point I was attempting to make was a reference to XLR being a guaranteed (MOSTLY) balanced connection. Not all 1/4 inch jacks are created equal whereas in the case of XLR...

Many jack inputs in less than state of the art equipment do not offer balanced receptacles. Isn't this true? What about balance instrument inputs? How many of those are guaranteed balanced?

Admittedly, there is some REAL ignorance on my behalf here, but I was always under the impression that XLR outputs are preferred with respect to to input recording connections. Whether talking TRS 1/4 inch or not. Is this true?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:28 pm

DrXparaMental wrote:The point I was attempting to make was a reference to XLR being a guaranteed (MOSTLY) balanced connection. Not all 1/4 inch jacks are created equal whereas in the case of XLR...

Many jack inputs in less than state of the art equipment do not offer balanced receptacles. Isn't this true? What about balance instrument inputs? How many of those are guaranteed balanced?

Admittedly, there is some REAL ignorance on my behalf here, but I was always under the impression that XLR outputs are preferred with respect to to input recording connections. Whether talking TRS 1/4 inch or not. Is this true?

we're still not connecting here...
what does MOSTLY balanced mean? it's balanced or not.

you're saying it's a matter of build quality in the connector between XLR and TRS?? no, it's not.

there are no balanced instrument inputs. in order for that to be true your bass would have to have a balanced line driver built into it, they don't.

overall I have to say that you're giving advice to someone just starting out. a vast majority of guitar and bass players (99%) do not use balanced ins/outs in their rig, stomp boxes, amps, etc do not use balanced connections (the vast majority at least). this is a guy starting out, this isn't stanley clarke looking to update his rig that the label is paying for.

technically balanced has less noise than unbalanced but the difference in most applications (not surrounded by LOTS of large PA equipment with LONG cable runs between your gear) does not matter. it's not a matter of knowing what sounds best (that's a never ending argument of throwing money at the problem for a minute gain) it's a matter of knowing where to draw the line.

do you know what balanced means? do you know how it works? talking shop

my writing is never good on a monday morning.

DrXparaMental · Post by **DrXparaMental** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:40 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
DrXparaMental wrote:The point I was attempting to make was a reference to XLR being a guaranteed (MOSTLY) balanced connection. Not all 1/4 inch jacks are created equal whereas in the case of XLR...

Many jack inputs in less than state of the art equipment do not offer balanced receptacles. Isn't this true? What about balance instrument inputs? How many of those are guaranteed balanced?

Admittedly, there is some REAL ignorance on my behalf here, but I was always under the impression that XLR outputs are preferred with respect to to input recording connections. Whether talking TRS 1/4 inch or not. Is this true?
we're still not connecting here...
what does MOSTLY balanced mean? it's balanced or not.

you're saying it's a matter of build quality in the connector between XLR and TRS?? no, it's not.

there are no balanced instrument inputs. in order for that to be true your bass would have to have a balanced line driver built into it, they don't.

overall I have to say that you're giving advice to someone just starting out. a vast majority of guitar and bass players (99%) do not use balanced ins/outs in their rig, stomp boxes, amps, etc do not use balanced connections.

technically balanced has less noise than unbalanced but the difference in most applications (not surrounded by LOTS of large PA equipment with LONG cable runs between your gear) does not matter. it's not a matter of knowing what sounds best (that's a never ending argument of throwing money at the problem for a minute gain) it's a matter of knowing where to draw the line.

do you know what balanced means? do you know how it works? talking shop

TD
You're being a bit condescending here. (MOSTLY) means exactly what I said, (MOSTLY) all XLR cables are balanced NOT ALL ARE, but (Most) OK?

Secondly I know EXACTLY what "balanced" is. I learned from Craig Anderton a LONG time ago.

Come on man, no need to be that way.

Balanced is better, period. Typically XLR will give you a (pretty much) guaranteed balanced connection whereas 1/4" demands a balanced input to make a balanced connection. No?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:48 pm

I hear ya, like I said I never write well on a monday morning. often it's hard to tell who you're talking to, some kid DJ types hear things and repeat it without knowing what it means.

the brunt of my point is overkill and the advice for the audience.

the cable itself is just the physical connection, balanced or unbalanced depends on the equipment. if you can get 3 wires from one piece of gear to another then you can have a balanced signal.

in this thread
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... solder+trs
a poster put up some detailed wiring diagrams of XLR vs. TRS, it doesn't matter.

craig anderton is a great man, can I name drop... Tone motherfucking Deft!! just kidding, I'm nobody.

but still, do you know how balanced connections work? simple question with a short answer.

sorry to be condescending, trust me, I know there's MUCH bigger people out there than me and the other guy usually is. I'm just tired and would rather talk shop than get to work.

DrXparaMental · Post by **DrXparaMental** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:52 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I hear ya, like I said I never write well on a monday morning. often it's hard to tell who you're talking to, some kid DJ types hear things and repeat it without knowing what it means.

the brunt of my point is overkill and the advice for the audience.

the cable itself is just the physical connection, balanced or unbalanced depends on the equipment. if you can get 3 wires from one piece of gear to another then you can have a balanced signal.

in this thread
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... solder+trs
a poster put up some detailed wiring diagrams of XLR vs. TRS, it doesn't matter.

craig anderton is a great man, can I name drop... Tone motherfucking Deft!! just kidding, I'm nobody.

but still, do you know how balanced connections work? simple question with a short answer.

sorry to be condescending, trust me, I know there's MUCH bigger people out there than me and the other guy usually is. I'm just tired and would rather talk shop than get to work.

Thanks TD, LOL!
I always appreciate your input. You have have helped me in times past and I REALLY appreciate that. I do understand "Common Mode Rejection” . I understand about noise being introduced over longer distances, but I also feel there is another specific benefit that I receive from the balanced cancellation process. One that's tough to put into proven words and one that I am not certain whether my specific set up plays the bigger part in or not.

I will refer to this benefit as imaging because I have NO CLUE what else to call it. Whether running my Roland V Bass module XLR mono to sound card to Live 6.0 or stereo to Mackie board to PA, I get a more pleasing & defined representation of the synth patches. Especially the right and left stereo outputs.

No clue what this means but I will say the ignorance that I referred to in my earlier post was based on the fact that this is the only real test I have performed. I have no other experiences to draw from with respect to other processors or modules.

I am liking what I am hearing back these days (starting to anyhow) and fully KNOW it's all in the tracks mastering post the initial recorded signal.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:10 pm

use your ears is always the best answer.

technically speaking there's 3 signals in a balanced configuration
+ signal
ground
- signal

+ signal and - signal are identical signals, -signal is + signal inverted.

at the receiving end you subtract - signal from + signal to get the original signal. (s=signal for ease of reading)

s - (-s) = signal at receiver
s + s = signal at receiver
2*s = signal at receiver

you get a signal twice as loud but that gets turned back into line level. the beauty is when you add in noise to s and -s. the KEY is that both +s and -s pick up the IDENTICAL noise because they're physically laid out next to each other going through the noisy club environment.

(s + noise) - (-s + noise) = signal at receiver
s + noise + s - noise = signal at receiver
s + s + noise - noise = signal at receiver
(noise cancels out!!)
2*s = signal at receiver

that's the sole reason for balanced connections, to eliminated noise. this is all done with basic op amps and line drivers, no DSP, nothing like that, just pure addition and subtraction.

so, balanced is better, it's quieter but when you use it depends on how electrically noisy the environment is around you and the length of your cable runs. WHEN that matters is subjective, audio is a weird beast like that, NOTHING is perfect and human hearing is imperfect too, we all have different hearing ranges and sensitivities, our hearing isn't even linear, it's logarithmic, it's all jacked up!!

sounds like you have a sweet bass rig though, I just play through a Pod XT into my bassless event monitors (gotta upgrade those things..

)

Grahambo! · Post by **Grahambo!** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:30 pm

haha sorry my post started some conflict.

thanks for all the info though, guys.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:14 pm

no, that was me, we're just talking shop. this is music, serious business!!

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:11 am

there are no balanced instrument inputs. in order for that to be true your bass would have to have a balanced line driver built into it, they don't.

just to stir things up even more

, i think there was a balanced bass guitar built by gibson - http://www.gibsonbass.com/LPtriumph_1.php pretty sure that if you used the Lo-Z setting and had the transformer thingy etc it put out a balanced signal to the amplifier. i could be wrong though...

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:38 am

Clearscreen wrote:
there are no balanced instrument inputs. in order for that to be true your bass would have to have a balanced line driver built into it, they don't.
just to stir things up even more , i think there was a balanced bass guitar built by gibson - http://www.gibsonbass.com/LPtriumph_1.php pretty sure that if you used the Lo-Z setting and had the transformer thingy etc it put out a balanced signal to the amplifier. i could be wrong though...

fuck that, total bullshit, can't be done, whatever!! why are you wasting our time??!?!?! n00b!!!!

I have no doubt that Xparamental knows more about the available bass gear that's out there. sounds like he has a nice rig and took the time to make it balanced as well. sometimes there are no definite answers, audio is weird.

3rdordertrauma · Post by **3rdordertrauma** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:46 am

Hey Grahambo, you have got lots of advice here so far but after reading most of it not a lot of it is clear. So I'll input my 2 cents with an attempt to answer your original question clearly (but no guarantees)!

Simply... your bass outputs "instrument level" you need a sound card with an "instrument level" input or a DI box that will convert that instrument level to "line level". If you plan to record directly into the computer. Otherwise you signal getting into the computer will be shit... it won't matter if you have thousands of dollars emulation plugins pouring out of your computer. In recording, I say if shit goes in, shit comes out. Yeah you could play around and doctor up the sounds and do all that but my point is to get something that sounds good and has a good strong signal to start with. Then adding plugs and fattening up the sound is much much easier. "Line level" is a stronger signal that is output from things like CD player or keyboards (stuff like that).

My recommendation for a sound card: and as people have mentioned DO NOT skimp on your sound card its worth it to pay for a quality one. Remember your signal is only ever as good as the weakest link. Doesn't make sense to pipe a 15k bass rig into a SoundBlaster sound card. Anyway I like the RME stuff the Fireface 400 & 800 in particular. The 400 has two digitally controlled high quality Mic Preamps, two balanced universal inputs for line and instrument signals... its firewire so it could be used on whatever computer you have desktop or laptop so long as it has a firewire port. Its a simple professional grade audio interface that will accept just about any type of input out there.

As you get more into it you may want to think about purchasing a good instrument mic and recording the output from you bass cabs. Not only can this be a lot of fun but it can render some excellent results. Personally my favorite way to record bass or guitar... I feel something happens to the sound when it leaves the speakers travels through air and then into a mic. But thats just personal preference.

All that said... you mentioned you have a direct out on your amp... try this first I'd say. Before you spend money on audio interfaces and software and mics. The direct out can be plugged strait into your existing sound cards "line level" inputs and the signal should be nice and strong. I typically try to record both the mic'd up speaker cabinet (this of course contains all the coloration and FX you may have on) and the direct output if its available (this will record a dryer clean signal, great for post editing and FX to be dropped on like the emulation software the others have mentioned).

Well that got longer than I had hoped, sorry for the long post it was meant to simplify things a bit... but I hope it helped anyway.