Radiohead...

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:51 am

Darwinist wrote:In the future, all recorded music will be free, or donationware. This is an unavoidable result of technological advancement. Trying to prop up the "record" industry(as opposed to the music industry in general) is an exercise in futility akin to trying to keep horse carriage makers in buisness after Henry Ford dropped the automobile bomb, or candlemakers after Edison. Both industries still exist in a sense, but they are greatly, greatly diminished. Same will happen to the selling of recorded music.

I did a lecture in macro-economics class last year where I theorized that recorded music had actually shifted in nature over the last 10 years or so, from a private good to a public good(if you don´t know what these terms mean, look them up on wiki) - and thus it was futile to try to charge people for their direct use....

Just b/c the ability to sell and thus profit off of a product has become "futile" due to criminal piracy doesn't mean that the product becomes a "public good." It just means that criminality has outsmarted private enterprise and law enforcement and the producers of said product will be deterred from entering such a market and creating future products.

pulsoc · Post by **pulsoc** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:58 am

kramerica wrote:Just b/c the ability to sell and thus profit off of a product has become "futile" due to criminal piracy doesn't mean that the product becomes a "public good." It just means that criminality has outsmarted private enterprise and law enforcement and the producers of said product will be deterred from entering such a market and creating future products.

Right, because you can already see what a huge drop in recorded music production there is.

Darwinist · Post by **Darwinist** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:04 am

kramerica wrote: Just b/c the ability to sell and thus profit off of a product has become "futile" due to criminal piracy doesn't mean that the product becomes a "public good." It just means that criminality has outsmarted private enterprise and law enforcement and the producers of said product will be deterred from entering such a market and creating future products.

You are missing the point. Public and Private goods are not legal definitions, they are economic definitions, and economics science does not concern itself with morals or what is "criminal" and what is not. An unenforceable law is no law at all.

And the creation of music is (usually) not an impulse that arises out of an eagerness to make money in the first place.

Secondly, artists will not be feeling the crunch as they have made a far smaller percentage of their living on record sales. The people crushed by this(inevitable) development are the army of middlemen that have set up shop between creator and consumer.

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:47 am

LOFA wrote:I have not ordered the tracks because I have not yet decided if I want the book or not. If I end up downloading the tracks it would be comparable to whatever I spent pre-ordering them at my own price. Somewhere between nothing and a dollar a song. Closer to the dollar.

you name your own price, i put £0.00 in for the album, and it said thank you for your order.

Album = FREE

philipc · Post by **philipc** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:05 am

The decline in sales of recorded music has coincided with a boom in the popularity of live music (at least thats how it looks where I live) and that is where artists like Radiohead make their real money. In fact i've heard a lot of people say that this is the way its really been for a very long time, before downloads etc. If people aren't engaging in a material way with the music they love through CDs, vinyl, sleevenotes, artwork etc they still want to engage with it and they will pay big money to go and see these folks on tour. I think this is a good thing personally..

substance_g · Post by **substance_g** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:03 am

Johnny Marr and Ian Brown like the idea too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7034320.stm

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:24 am

the downside is that radiohead now announced that the album will be sold via major-distribution in 2008.

So now it looks more like a publicity-stunt than like an attack on the major-music-corporations to me.

substance_g · Post by **substance_g** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:05 am

pepezabala wrote:the downside is that radiohead now announced that the album will be sold via major-distribution in 2008.

If true, I don't see a major difference. It'll only affect those who "bought" the download thinking that this is the only legal way to hear the tracks, short of buying the 40 quid vinyl/CD jobbie. If you paid $0.00 for the download, it makes no difference. If you just want the music and don't care about a jewel box/artwork, it makes no difference. If you're a fanboy, you'll have ordered the 40 quid one anyway.

Would be interesting to know whether the free legal download will still be available when the CD is available via major-distribution.

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:34 am

the difference would have been that they would have excluded the big corporations from distributing and making money with the new album.

which would have been some kind of "revolutionary".

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:31 pm

philipc wrote:The decline in sales of recorded music has coincided with a boom in the popularity of live music

Really? For the past 20 years or so, I hear the same complaints from musicians visavis live music. People don't support local music...AND...one has to starve to be a full-time musician.

And I remember a time, not so long ago, where live shows were regarded as a promo vehicle for your album. Alas, due to rationalization and selective memory we're doing our best to turn a horrible situation into something palpable.

In an astonishingly short time, the value of music has dropped to dismal lows. So low in fact, that Brian Eno said there's WAY TOO MUCH of it, and silence will be a commodity (think noise reducing head phones) work selling.

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:24 pm

Sales in the record industry today are still about par with sales in 1997, it's just that the overwhelming majority of sales is now in digital format (downloads) as opposed to CDs.

jeskola · Post by **jeskola** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:43 pm

kramerica wrote:Sales in the record industry today are still about par with sales in 1997, it's just that the overwhelming majority of sales is now in digital format (downloads) as opposed to CDs.

I would be amazed if that was the case! Either that or more people are buying music than ever before to take the hit for the people filesharing.

philipc · Post by **philipc** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:45 pm

shtreimel wrote:
philipc wrote:The decline in sales of recorded music has coincided with a boom in the popularity of live music
Really? For the past 20 years or so, I hear the same complaints from musicians visavis live music. People don't support local music...AND...one has to starve to be a full-time musician.

And I remember a time, not so long ago, where live shows were regarded as a promo vehicle for your album. Alas, due to rationalization and selective memory we're doing our best to turn a horrible situation into something palpable.

In an astonishingly short time, the value of music has dropped to dismal lows. So low in fact, that Brian Eno said there's WAY TOO MUCH of it, and silence will be a commodity (think noise reducing head phones) work selling.

If i'm honest I have no factual evidence to back that up but gig going seems to be much more a part of the culture I see around me today than it was even a few years ago. It could just be a British thing. Rock and "rave" (I use the term loosely; as loose as <insert vagina joke here>) are pretty 'in' at the moment.

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:05 pm

jeskola wrote:
kramerica wrote:Sales in the record industry today are still about par with sales in 1997, it's just that the overwhelming majority of sales is now in digital format (downloads) as opposed to CDs.
I would be amazed if that was the case! Either that or more people are buying music than ever before to take the hit for the people filesharing.

This is only an example from the UK market but here it is:

53.0m + 13.9m = 67m in sales for 2007. It was 77.8m in sales for 1997. Not quite "par" but not too far below what it was. Plus, with ringtone sales skyrocketing, I wouldn't be surprised if 2008 surpassed 1997's numbers.

Obviously, the numbers have suffered for the last decade, but the current upward trend seems clear - the industry is adapting and sales are returning to pre-P2P levels.

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:11 pm

Darwinist wrote:
kramerica wrote: Just b/c the ability to sell and thus profit off of a product has become "futile" due to criminal piracy doesn't mean that the product becomes a "public good." It just means that criminality has outsmarted private enterprise and law enforcement and the producers of said product will be deterred from entering such a market and creating future products.
You are missing the point. Public and Private goods are not legal definitions, they are economic definitions, and economics science does not concern itself with morals or what is "criminal" and what is not. An unenforceable law is no law at all.

And the creation of music is (usually) not an impulse that arises out of an eagerness to make money in the first place.

Secondly, artists will not be feeling the crunch as they have made a far smaller percentage of their living on record sales. The people crushed by this(inevitable) development are the army of middlemen that have set up shop between creator and consumer.

I see your point (now), from the economics perspective. I studied and practice law so it's natural for me to view things from the "moral" or "fairness" standards as opposed to the murky, amoral realm of economics (what is simply is).

Question: Were you arguing that it is also a "favorable" thing that music has increasingly become a public good as opposed to private? Or are you just telling it how it is in economics land?