Seriously, are you guys smoking crack?

[headquest]

You can not compare Logic 8´s pricing with Live. Apple sells Logic way to cheap, because they want people like you to buy there program.

Seriously though, it's not just Apple. Sony have dropped the price of ACID over the last couple of years, Adobe Audition has gone down a bit (espeially the very cheap upgrade from 2 to 3), Cakewalk have dropped the price of Project 5 to something ridiculously cheap, and bundled instruments they previously sold, now free with Sonar 7...

...and let's not forget the crazy-cheap price of Reaper 2, which in case people here did not spot it now has BETTER timestretching than Ableton Live, sice that developer licensed Elastique Pro, which is the upgrade to the one Ableton licensed for Complex Mode... and you can still buy the full programme for just $40

There is a trend here, and this is it - software prices are generally going down, not up.

And whether it is FAIR or not is totally irrelevant. It is the new reality, and as a commerical company operating in a competative environment, Ableton (plus Steinberg and the others) are going to have to adapt to this new order. Or perish.

[headquest]

Apple is the Wal-Mart of DAWs right now and you need to decide if you want to support the "mom and pop's" DAW makers (Abes) or the "big box retailer" of DAWs (Apple).

Among other considerations of course. But it's just silly to get angry over Abes pricing structure. To try and argue that they should compete with Apple's strong arm tactic is just silly.

So how do you explain the price difference between Live 7 and, for examples, REAPER ($40), Tracktion ($199) to name a couple...?

These guys are hardly WalMart - nor are they making big profits elsewhere...

[OvertoneZero]

Trolling through the forum ruckus, it looks like there are some pretty cool changes in version 7. There are also some big gaps.

Simply put, I would encourage Ableton from both a commercial and artistic perspective to put 100% of their future development energy and focus into refining Live's base functionality and not worry about throwing in all the extras.

I would much prefer to spend my $$$ on a streamlined but extremely well-designed music creation program that does everything I want it to featurewise rather than see Ableton trying to become another 'bundled package' vendor. I already have plenty of plug-in synths, effects, etc.

If Ableton wants to do both and offer the option, do it, but keep your priorities straight and don't start adding more synths and stuff like that until all of the important sequencer features are nailed down..

There are some important features still missing from Live, like dual-monitor support and non-destructive audio overdubbing for clips that just seem like no-brainers.. How many more years? Forever?

Keep it on the right track.

[Tarekith]

Trolling through the forum ruckus, it looks like there are some pretty cool changes in version 7. There are also some big gaps.

Simply put, I would encourage Ableton from both a commercial and artistic perspective to put 100% of their future development energy and focus into refining Live's base functionality and not worry about throwing in all the extras.

I would much prefer to spend my $$$ on a streamlined but extremely well-designed music creation program that does everything I want it to featurewise rather than see Ableton trying to become another 'bundled package' vendor. I already have plenty of plug-in synths, effects, etc.

If Ableton wants to do both and offer the option, do it, but keep your priorities straight and don't start adding more synths and stuff like that until all of the important sequencer features are nailed down..

There are some important features still missing from Live, like dual-monitor support and non-destructive audio overdubbing for clips that just seem like no-brainers.. How many more years? Forever?

Keep it on the right track.

Well and proper said.

[leedsquietman]

You cannot compare Sonar and Reaper and Logic to Live.

When will people get this? When was the last time you saw anybody of note using those applications for live performance, on the fly jamming with loops, MIDI and dropping in any audio or MIDI file you want wihtout stopping the music and have it autosync to tempo. When was the last time you played with racks in Reaper or Sonar etc.

All the people whining about the Live 7 update are missing the point. The new features have been requested by many and they can't include everything in one fell swoop. Apple took 3 years to update Logic and one could argue that for what they're including in Logic 8, that those devlopments could have been implemented in half the time. The reason people are not whining is because they are now trying to squeeze the competition with a big price cut. Apple want to be the MICROSOFT of the music DAW world where everyone becomes a fucking Mac/Logic zombie then once MOTU and Steinberg are out of the game, it wouldn't matter whether they ever updated Logic again, because they would be the only choice, everyone would be slave to Apple.

Long live Ableton and Live. And those whiners who don't like it, stop boring us, sell your Ableton licenses and fuck off to something else. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[djadonis206]

I mean, you're both correct but I have to side with heinz here

I never indulged those conversations but I read 'em

seems odd to keep the boat a float the abes claimed ableton sounded just as good as Logic, Cubase etc so why update the audio engine?

personally I'm not so anal so I don't care (actually I do a little) but...


anywayz, you shouldn't do drugs unless you're really hot

convo was directed at forge and heinz - fyi

[headquest]

You cannot compare Sonar and Reaper and Logic to Live.

If Ableton compare Live to them (by saying it is a fully capable DAW) then the comparisson is not only legitimate - it's invited

As for whining, I think that Live 7 is (the core app) a reasonable update for sure - there's plenty in it for me to upgrade. But I think it is less impressive than 4, 5 and 6 were, even though it took them longer. So I think some of the disappointment is coming from people who really love using Live but are just a little underwhelmed by this update.

It's perfectly reasonable for them to express that view, even if you don't personally agree with them.

[Machinate]

so did we ever clear this up? Are you smoking crack?

[peeddrroo]

so did we ever clear this up? Are you smoking crack?

all the time.

and i'm down with leedsquietman.
well said bro.

have a puff on me.

[Tone Deft]

so did we ever clear this up? Are you smoking crack?

I think I'm totally cracked out of my skull, to me Live sounds great, ver 7 is reasonably priced and I use a PC.

[kramerica]

Apple is the Wal-Mart of DAWs right now and you need to decide if you want to support the "mom and pop's" DAW makers (Abes) or the "big box retailer" of DAWs (Apple).

Among other considerations of course. But it's just silly to get angry over Abes pricing structure. To try and argue that they should compete with Apple's strong arm tactic is just silly.

So how do you explain the price difference between Live 7 and, for examples, REAPER ($40), Tracktion ($199) to name a couple...?

These guys are hardly WalMart - nor are they making big profits elsewhere...

I've never used Reaper or Trackton, but I know I didn't like Acid - another cheapy (though owned by Sony). I'm guessing these aren't full DAWs, have limited capabilities, and certainly don't offer any kind of non-linear capabilities?

I use Ableton b/c it's the tits. I wouldn't even produce music if it wasn't for Abes b/c I wouldn't have spent the time to learn anything else. Abes was just so damn easy using the session view that I traded in all my hardware audio loopers. But I was paying for a non-linear DAW; something that hadn't existed before and I still don't think anyone has produced anything like Live. It's that revolutionary aspect of Live that justifies the price they charge. Many of us here rarely if ever use the arrangement view (i.e. linear mode) so such comparisons are often moot for us. But I digress.

Costs of software and technology in general are always going down. That is a a good thing.

However, I still believe Apple, with their large cash flows, is simply taking a loss on every unit of Logic 8 sold in order to gain a larger footprint in the DAW industry. This is simply a long term investment by Apple to make more money in the future by increasing their market share and decreasing competition. Ableton can't afford to do this; at least to the same degree.

[headquest]

I've never used Reaper or Trackton, but I know I didn't like Acid - another cheapy (though owned by Sony). I'm guessing these aren't full DAWs, have limited capabilities, and certainly don't offer any kind of non-linear capabilities?

Well, for starters, all three have auto-crossfades in their arrangments, groove templates for MIDI (and in the case of ACID audio too), and folder tracks... just a few for starters

They are powerful in a whole pile of pretty impresesive ways, and to think Ableton have nothing to learn from them is plain denial (so very unhelpful).

Then again, like you, I use Ableton Live because I prefer it

But that doesn't mean I will blindly accept the price differential without using any critical thought processes. As users I think we owe it to Ableton to give them feedback, both good (which I often give) and bad.

[Tone Deft]

Well, for starters, all three have auto-crossfades in their arrangments, groove templates for MIDI (and in the case of ACID audio too), and folder tracks... just a few for starters

They are powerful in a whole pile of pretty impresesive ways, and to think Ableton have nothing to learn from them is plain denial (so very unhelpful).

Then again, like you, I use Ableton Live because I prefer it

But that doesn't mean I will blindly accept the price differential without using any critical thought processes. As users I think we owe it to Ableton to give them feedback, both good (which I often give) and bad.

this is one of the more aesthetically pleasing posts I've seen in a long time, if ever. I'd like to give headquest a gold star for his efforts.

[headquest]

[JJarvis]

I think ableton should make hardware instruments. I'm sick of all these soft synths.