BT Talks about MIDI timing inaccuracies...

[leisuremuffin]

wow, against very heavy competition you have won Most Pompous Prick on this board - quite the achievement. now go do some yoga and see if the increased flexibility allows you to extract your bald head from your arsehole

nobody ever listens to me.....


..but i'm usually right.




.lm.

[nolus]

OSC is a great concept and in the long run it will probably replace MIDI. MIDI was also a great concept - so great that it has been around for 25 years and is still the main protocol for connecting musical devices and storeing musical performance data.

To say that "it was never really great concept" is just ridiculous.

[rikhyray]

Yeah, it blows me away that someone/anyone can come into this forum and diss Dave Smith.
.

Mea culpa, shame on me, forgot it was Dave`s invention and I definitely have enormous respect for him. There were other options, concepts (VHS was a shitty system but won over others, it didn't make it any better, quantity does not turn into quality) midi was a success, no question about that but it outlived, over lived, whatever. I am sure David himself finds it obsolete today.
I guess for Ableton it is a compromise, they are progressive and ahead thinking but look how controversial was not having Impulse GM confirm. If it was just them I am sure there would be better ideas but they have to consider certain standards even if those are substandards. Mostly Ableton solutions to BS are elegant, like they pleased those demanding mp3 without compromising much..

[thelike5]

BT can go back to the salon/boyfriends house and bitch about it there. When he invents his own protocol or has a suggestion on how to make an existing one better maybe I'll listen.

OSC - Open Sound Control

http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/OpenSoundControl/

Reaktor uses it internally, same with Lemur. One of the performance side wishes for the next Live was that Live would have been one of the first big DAWs to fully support it, and hence have a head-way with far more superior electronic controllers. Alas, it didn't happen yet. --Kent

Yeah, I know about OSC. There just is such a limited amount of applications for it. It's simply to new. Software companies (Ableton, etc.) haven't had too much time to create patches to support it yet. I'm sure at some point they will. Sadly for a lot of users in this forum it doesn't look like it's going to happen in Live 7. OK by me, it's making me hold off on that monome purchase!!

Perhaps if BT would have suggested benefits of using OSC I wouldn't have had such a hard time with his comments. But to discredit Dave Smith and midi as a whole as being outdated junk just annoyed me.

BT may know his zeros and ones or he may just repeat what someone else tells him. I do know that to my ears, his music is crap. It's pretty much exactely what people think I must try sounding like when I tell the uninitiated that I produce "electronic music".

When I was in a punk band people thought "oh like Green Day"... couldn't have been further off but I guess that's what you get for talking to people sometimes. Better to just keep your much.

[sweetjesus]

semi true .. but hey it hasnt stopped hundreds of thousands of musiciands for close to 3 decades.

maybe bt plays at a different groove quantize if his hair is cut at a slightly different angle and thus changing the whole way he has to approach his album writing style..

I think everyone knows BT is very good musician who looks, behaves silly, immature, thinking he makes himself look cool. it is his problem but how better is your comment ?
I just see somebody bitter, full of complexes for lack public recognition, envious about someones else success,
trying to make himself taller by cutting heads of others,, hair in this case.
I am no BTs friend, neither fan but it is pathetic how low you go in your comment. I hope for you , you were drunk or too tired.
Regarding the midi matter, there is nothing "semi true " about it, whoever does not know, see, hear it and take into consideration while producing, needs some serious studies. He is emotional about it, his right to feel say what he wants, most people simply live with it, what else can we do except using all possible ways to correct, rectify.
If someone thinks it applies only to old school hardware-wrong, it is even worse with computers, and Live midi is worse then of nearly any apps. I wouldn't be surprised that the reason was frustration of the developers to be forced to work on something so ridiculously obsolete, Perhaps when Ableton started, everyone though by 2005 midi will be dead, it must be frustrating for any intelligent developer to be forced to work with this pathetic protocol, it is against all they studied and common sense as well.

i wake up on the wrong side and am intoxicated and tired everyday. i just speak my mind. maybe i do have complexes against the guy but maybe i just see a massive sense of hypocricy at a person who became famous through electronic music faulting the technology that has been the driving force of modern music culture.

so i make fun of his hair because in my opinion thats about as likely to have a serious impact on someones music quality as midi latency.

[sweetjesus]

There's absolutely no reason to stick with MIDI, except for cost.

Hardly even cost, to be honest. network systems are dirt cheap, the data is simple.

Having said that, companies like Korg fully admit to burning the firmware into their products instead of making it user-upgradable... despite buggy/lacking behaviour...

how hard would it be to make a little device that extracts basic midi messages out of an OSC signal to allow older devices to interface with OSC based systems, even if just to get NOTE ON/OFF/VELOCITY/CC

[Machinate]

how hard would it be to make a little device that extracts basic midi messages out of an OSC signal to allow older devices to interface with OSC based systems, even if just to get NOTE ON/OFF/VELOCITY/CC

It would be somewhat redundant the way I see it... first of all, please name a situation where that would make sense? I can't imagine an OSC-system without a computer involved somewhere anyway, so a software solution along with a standard midi interface is enough.

And then there's the beauty of OSC - the O(pen) part of it - there is afaik no set specification for these values, so you would need a programmable interpretive layer anyway.

Software is the way to go.

[kramerica]

I know nothing about OSC.

With that in mind, is there any potential in OSC for an analog instrument (ex: strings, guitar, bass, vox) to be instantly converted into digital information which can then control things such as synths or samplers?

Basically, I want my guitar to control my Moog or some soft synth in real-time. The "pitch-to-MIDI" technology pretty much blows and hasn't improved over the years.

[Angstrom]

different thing really.
the issue you are laking about there relates to the difficulty in finding the root harmonic in a complex audio signal, and doing it quickly.
The issue there isn't the midi, but the audio to pitch analysis methods

[sweetjesus]

how hard would it be to make a little device that extracts basic midi messages out of an OSC signal to allow older devices to interface with OSC based systems, even if just to get NOTE ON/OFF/VELOCITY/CC

It would be somewhat redundant the way I see it... first of all, please name a situation where that would make sense? I can't imagine an OSC-system without a computer involved somewhere anyway, so a software solution along with a standard midi interface is enough.

And then there's the beauty of OSC - the O(pen) part of it - there is afaik no set specification for these values, so you would need a programmable interpretive layer anyway.

Software is the way to go.

well take the lemur

it would be nice to have a lemur + a box like i describe and plug it into a synthesizer without the need of a computer.

yeah you make ur screensets on the pc, but you dont have to take it with u.. its just an editor.

[Machinate]

how hard would it be to make a little device that extracts basic midi messages out of an OSC signal to allow older devices to interface with OSC based systems, even if just to get NOTE ON/OFF/VELOCITY/CC

It would be somewhat redundant the way I see it... first of all, please name a situation where that would make sense? I can't imagine an OSC-system without a computer involved somewhere anyway, so a software solution along with a standard midi interface is enough.

And then there's the beauty of OSC - the O(pen) part of it - there is afaik no set specification for these values, so you would need a programmable interpretive layer anyway.

Software is the way to go.

well take the lemur

it would be nice to have a lemur + a box like i describe and plug it into a synthesizer without the need of a computer.

yeah you make ur screensets on the pc, but you dont have to take it with u.. its just an editor.

JazzMutant did a collaboration with Kiss-Box:
http://www.kiss-box.com/
- they do an ethernet-to-midi solution. I don't know what the current status is, though, but it was used on their light-video and at musikmesse - WITHOUT a computer.

[sweetjesus]

It would be somewhat redundant the way I see it... first of all, please name a situation where that would make sense? I can't imagine an OSC-system without a computer involved somewhere anyway, so a software solution along with a standard midi interface is enough.

And then there's the beauty of OSC - the O(pen) part of it - there is afaik no set specification for these values, so you would need a programmable interpretive layer anyway.

Software is the way to go.

well take the lemur

it would be nice to have a lemur + a box like i describe and plug it into a synthesizer without the need of a computer.

yeah you make ur screensets on the pc, but you dont have to take it with u.. its just an editor.

JazzMutant did a collaboration with Kiss-Box:
http://www.kiss-box.com/
- they do an ethernet-to-midi solution. I don't know what the current status is, though, but it was used on their light-video and at musikmesse - WITHOUT a computer.

hehe if u knew about this then what was all that you were saying about not imagining not having a computer in a situation you would need osc?

this is cool just what im talkin about

[kramerica]

different thing really.
the issue you are laking about there relates to the difficulty in finding the root harmonic in a complex audio signal, and doing it quickly.
The issue there isn't the midi, but the audio to pitch analysis methods

That's my understanding.

But, I mean, it's f'ing 2007! Get on it scientists!

[kent_sandvik]

different thing really.
the issue you are laking about there relates to the difficulty in finding the root harmonic in a complex audio signal, and doing it quickly.
The issue there isn't the midi, but the audio to pitch analysis methods

That's my understanding.

But, I mean, it's f'ing 2007! Get on it scientists!

It's not a hard problem concerning analysis, with the exception of the higher the pitch, and the more variations, the faster CPUs you need to do it. Until now embedded systems have not had that fast CPUs due to cost issues, but it has changed during the last 2+ years or so. That's why MIDI tracking devices have become much better compared with the early days. I.e. it would have been tough to cram in an Intel chip inside a MIDI pick up until now :-).

--Kent

[kramerica]

different thing really.
the issue you are laking about there relates to the difficulty in finding the root harmonic in a complex audio signal, and doing it quickly.
The issue there isn't the midi, but the audio to pitch analysis methods

That's my understanding.

But, I mean, it's f'ing 2007! Get on it scientists!

It's not a hard problem concerning analysis, with the exception of the higher the pitch, and the more variations, the faster CPUs you need to do it. Until now embedded systems have not had that fast CPUs due to cost issues, but it has changed during the last 2+ years or so. That's why MIDI tracking devices have become much better compared with the early days. I.e. it would have been tough to cram in an Intel chip inside a MIDI pick up until now .

--Kent

I tried Roland's GK2a pickup + Roland's GI-20 Midi Interface about 4 yrs. ago and I found it to be crap, unless you have Pat Metheny-like chops. Way too many "ghost" notes and pads or chords often ended prematurely. The tracking was shite.

If there's a solution now, please let me know.