Ableton 7 it's a joke !!!

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:56 am

Hope your cracked Live 7 brings a plague of viruses and kills your hard drive.

Actually, not an uncommon thing for cracked versions of Live from what I hear on other websites.

If you don't like, don't pay. You can't compare Logic's pricing, they are currently trying to do a Microsoft and gain total control of the Mac DAW market, then they can sit on their hands and do nothing, once MOTU and Steinberg are out of the picture especially. YOu really think that if MAc sales pick up and MOTU and Steinberg leave them to it that the price of Logic 9 will be the same?? Squeeze the market make it slave to you and then you can up the prices with no retaliation.

Oscar F · Post by **Oscar F** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:36 am

Igor L wrote:
TR_606 wrote:The only thing that *really* upsets me about Live 7 is the pricing structure.

I've always thought that charging extra for Operator/Simpler etc took the piss, but Live 7 for me, crosses the line.

I think the whole thing should be a single package, at a reasonable price. No more of this wallet-crippling mix & match nonsense.

Live 7 is going to do nothing to change would-be crack version users' minds.
Can't afford the add-ons? Don't buy them. Seems like a very flexible pricing structure. I'd love to drive a Ferrari but I can't afford one, so instead of complaining to Ferrari about their pricing structure I drive what I can afford. That's life.

What the hell is up with all this friggin' lame ass CAR analogy syndrome ?
If I want the Ferrari and Can afford the Ferrari I am NOT forced into purchasing a car that only DRIVES on Roads made BY FERRARI am I.
The gear box would work when driving continually round the block and not only when I am on some linear journey from Point A too Point B - now there's a session view vs arranger automation argument for you.
Ferrari would appreciate my brand loyalty and offer great incentives to stay brand loyal and specific.
Hell I'd probably even get a decent trade in when purchasing a newer model if I so chose.
I can also PUT passengers in my Ferrari and drive these third parties from point a to point be literally bussing them from one point to another - hmmmmm still no rewire with vst/au's of as third party.
Hell I even get beautiful suspension that makes transitions between road surfaces and types almost feel like a well executed "cross fade".
I also get a premium set of features included for the price, wow I mean really do I get all those extra's included with the car.
Hell it's actually MY property also and not part of some proprietary licensing deal whereby I get look act and feel like a Ferrari owner but never get too own the car.
And it's a great deal because I never own the car, it has limitations and everytime something needs to be fixed that is deemed to be a design, engineering or manufacturing fault I have the privilege of paying for it, but paying for the priviledge means I get all the benefits of being a Ferrari fan boy and it sure is a pussy magnet .

There is that enough of a Ferrari / Live analogy for you?

Igor L · Post by **Igor L** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:42 am

Oscar F wrote:
Igor L wrote:
TR_606 wrote:The only thing that *really* upsets me about Live 7 is the pricing structure.

I've always thought that charging extra for Operator/Simpler etc took the piss, but Live 7 for me, crosses the line.

I think the whole thing should be a single package, at a reasonable price. No more of this wallet-crippling mix & match nonsense.

Live 7 is going to do nothing to change would-be crack version users' minds.
Can't afford the add-ons? Don't buy them. Seems like a very flexible pricing structure. I'd love to drive a Ferrari but I can't afford one, so instead of complaining to Ferrari about their pricing structure I drive what I can afford. That's life.

What the hell is up with all this friggin' lame ass CAR analogy syndrome ?
If I want the Ferrari and Can afford the Ferrari I am NOT forced into purchasing a car that only DRIVES on Roads made BY FERRARI am I.
The gear box would work when driving continually round the block and not only when I am on some linear journey from Point A too Point B - now there's a session view vs arranger automation argument for you.
Ferrari would appreciate my brand loyalty and offer great incentives to stay brand loyal and specific.
Hell I'd probably even get a decent trade in when purchasing a newer model if I so chose.
I can also PUT passengers in my Ferrari and drive these third parties from point a to point be literally bussing them from one point to another - hmmmmm still no rewire with vst/au's of as third party.
Hell I even get beautiful suspension that makes transitions between road surfaces and types almost feel like a well executed "cross fade".
I also get a premium set of features included for the price, wow I mean really do I get all those extra's included with the car.
Hell it's actually MY property also and not part of some proprietary licensing deal whereby I get look act and feel like a Ferrari owner but never get too own the car.
And it's a great deal because I never own the car, it has limitations and everytime something needs to be fixed that is deemed to be a design, engineering or manufacturing fault I have the privilege of paying for it, but paying for the priviledge means I get all the benefits of being a Ferrari fan boy and it sure is a pussy magnet .

There is that enough of a Ferrari / Live analogy for you?

Actually I stopped reading after the first two sentences. But I'm sure it was interesting.

glu · Post by **glu** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:43 am

Ableton Joke:

What did Logic say to Live?

Nice Rack!

Oscar F · Post by **Oscar F** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:54 am

Igor L wrote:
Oscar F wrote:
Igor L wrote: Can't afford the add-ons? Don't buy them. Seems like a very flexible pricing structure. I'd love to drive a Ferrari but I can't afford one, so instead of complaining to Ferrari about their pricing structure I drive what I can afford. That's life.

What the hell is up with all this friggin' lame ass CAR analogy syndrome ?
If I want the Ferrari and Can afford the Ferrari I am NOT forced into purchasing a car that only DRIVES on Roads made BY FERRARI am I.
The gear box would work when driving continually round the block and not only when I am on some linear journey from Point A too Point B - now there's a session view vs arranger automation argument for you.
Ferrari would appreciate my brand loyalty and offer great incentives to stay brand loyal and specific.
Hell I'd probably even get a decent trade in when purchasing a newer model if I so chose.
I can also PUT passengers in my Ferrari and drive these third parties from point a to point be literally bussing them from one point to another - hmmmmm still no rewire with vst/au's of as third party.
Hell I even get beautiful suspension that makes transitions between road surfaces and types almost feel like a well executed "cross fade".
I also get a premium set of features included for the price, wow I mean really do I get all those extra's included with the car.
Hell it's actually MY property also and not part of some proprietary licensing deal whereby I get look act and feel like a Ferrari owner but never get too own the car.
And it's a great deal because I never own the car, it has limitations and everytime something needs to be fixed that is deemed to be a design, engineering or manufacturing fault I have the privilege of paying for it, but paying for the priviledge means I get all the benefits of being a Ferrari fan boy and it sure is a pussy magnet .

There is that enough of a Ferrari / Live analogy for you?
Actually I stopped reading after the first two sentences. But I'm sure it was interesting.

Yet you could find time to post a reply

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:57 am

this thread is like my (stolen) car
it's full of crack heads.

kaboom tish, thankyew

Oscar F · Post by **Oscar F** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:13 am

Just playing Devils Advocate on the Ferrari Analogy really

.
I am quite happy with Live 5 to me honest and haven't seen anything that would greatly improve my compositional style in either V6 or V7.
Personally I feel the Instruments should have been bundled with the Application ie: Operator, Impulse, Simpler, Sampler, Tension, Analog, Electric but at a dearer price than the "basic upgrade" - to be honest with you I'd pay say $400-$475 AUD all up as an upgrade from V5 for all that.
However I have no problems with the asking price of EIC/EIC2 and all the other larger sampler library sets and think those should/could be purchased at a later date should you need or want any of them.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:51 am

Oscar F wrote:If I want the Ferrari and Can afford the Ferrari I am NOT forced into purchasing a car that only DRIVES on Roads made BY FERRARI am I.

Depends... If you buy a F1 from them, I doubt they'll let you cruise thru Rome with it. Even though you own the ferrari.
And if the ferrari wasn't in perfect condition when you bought it... Caveat Emptor!

Right, the next analogy that people use must be themed around Star Wars.

steff3 · Post by **steff3** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:01 am

[quote="andydes"]Live, Operator and Sampler are products. [/quote]
no, they are not! Operator and Sampler is not a separate product, or why can't you use the latest version of Operator in Live 5 or use sampler in Live 5? They are their to force customers to upgrade or be ripped off.

[quote="andydes"] What do you think that Ableton owes you? [/quote]
nothing - but we are the customers - ever heard something about CRM and suchlike - who pays their incomes?

best

steff3 · Post by **steff3** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:07 am

[quote="leedsquietman"]

If you don't like, don't pay. You can't compare Logic's pricing, they are currently trying to do a Microsoft and gain total control of the Mac DAW market, then they can sit on their hands and do nothing, once MOTU and Steinberg are out of the picture especially. YOu really think that if MAc sales pick up and MOTU and Steinberg leave them to it that the price of Logic 9 will be the same?? Squeeze the market make it slave to you and then you can up the prices with no retaliation.[/quote]

oh, I think that is exactly why Final Cut never saw any update over the last decade? Or Motion or DVD Studio Pro - no real competitor on Mac for that .... And did the prices for DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut Pro go up or down?

Your argumentation is pretty flawed ..... to say the least. No, I do not hope that MOTU or any other company will lose market share for Mac DAWs, but your scenario is not really correct or anything .... just the normal nonsense I guess ....

best

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:09 am

steff3 wrote:
leedsquietman wrote:
If you don't like, don't pay. You can't compare Logic's pricing, they are currently trying to do a Microsoft and gain total control of the Mac DAW market, then they can sit on their hands and do nothing, once MOTU and Steinberg are out of the picture especially. YOu really think that if MAc sales pick up and MOTU and Steinberg leave them to it that the price of Logic 9 will be the same?? Squeeze the market make it slave to you and then you can up the prices with no retaliation.
oh, I think that is exactly why Final Cut never saw any update over the last decade? Or Motion or DVD Studio Pro - no real competitor on Mac for that .... And did the prices for DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut Pro go up or down?

Your argumentation is pretty flawed ..... to say the least. No, I do not hope that MOTU or any other company will lose market share for Mac DAWs, but your scenario is not really correct or anything .... just the normal nonsense I guess ....

best

except final cut isnt a decade old.

i think conception is a pretty big update.

pat the dog · Post by **pat the dog** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:36 am

steff3 wrote: oh, I think that is exactly why Final Cut never saw any update over the last decade? Or Motion or DVD Studio Pro - no real competitor on Mac for that ....

hmm, all three of these were updated earlier this year in the final cut studio 2 package. motion has a major competitor in the form of aftereffects.

anyway i'm not sure how much faith i have in apple's commitment to developing logic (was this also your point?). it took a long time for them to get around to releasing logic 8 and i've no reason to believe logic 9 will come round anytime soon.

at least ableton have a good track record of releasing a big update almost yearly. so i like to think that the shortcomings in live will be worked out a lot quicker than the shortcomings in logic.

nolus · Post by **nolus** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:10 am

The only thing that *really* anoys me about the pricing structure is the way that American customers seem to get around $105 discount off the boxed ableton suite upgrade ($85 off the download) compared to the current exchange rate applied to the euro prices.

If Ableton was an american registered company I could just about understand it.

If the upgrade version is available in retail stores I might have to look into the possibility of grey imports.

I live in england (we don't use the euro) but Abletons web shop will force me to buy at the euro price (it always has in the past anyway)

On the subject of the instruments being bundled with the application code and then licensed separately - well the problem with that is it means you can't shop around for the best price. If you search around the online music retail stores you can nearly always pick up a bargain on the ableton box (eg. £279.99 = 402 euro at DV247.com for boxed live6 compared to 549 euro from ableton). But if you want to turn on Operator or Sampler (and now the new instruments) you always have to go direct to Ableton for them.

If Microsoft arranged it that the only way you could buy Windows or Office was direct from thier web site people would blow a gasket and take them to court for unfair trading practices.

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:45 am

friend_kami wrote:
paradiddle wrote:I haven't tried the beta yet but the only thing I'm disappointed with the update is the 128 limit thing. At least we should be able to select which parameters we want to automate even if the limit is 128.

Some of my wishes came trough like the time sig, sidechaining, multiple lane, slicing. Rex files is a nice little addon. Drum racks look like the shit, can't wait to try that out.
agreed on the drumracks aye.

but i think the OP forgot something very important:

track grouping.

last week i was working on a remix with a friend of mine. due to the fact that i could group my tracks, i had 4 tracks (baseline, synthline, percussions and vocals) on 4 different tracks set to monitor "on".

after that i had 34 tracks in total with different sections of the track with different mastering and effect setups.

additionally, i also had 6 tracks for effects and another 4 send channels.

sure i rendered them out as much as i could, but all those little parts needed separate tracks most of the time.

at one point i had a total of 43 tracks on my screen, every tracks except the 4 main groups and the effect tracks were dragged in to its minimal space (that is, the play/stop button only). right there i felt that if only i could assigne these tracks to a group, then hide the contents of that group, that would not only save me a bigass headache trying to figure out what track goes where, and where the hell that sepcific synthline track were (clever naming indeed, but really..), and also save me alot of screen space. so that i could for instance open up the tracks so that i could see the knobs, and the meters fully, for level analysing and whatnots.

instead, i ended up make 5 different als files, mastering them all separatly, rendered them out separetly, before making a new live-set with these newly rendered files and continued there.

do note that this was after deciding on the arrangement, which was entirely done in session view, and slightly edited in arrangement view.

heres a screenshot after some optimisation and whatnots, in session view, while mastering the groups a bit, before final editing and render:
as you can clearly see, track groups are needed.

i know this belongs elsewhere, but im drunk so i blame it on that fact.
somewhat related to the UI thread though.

i had to photoshop the picture to make room for all the tracks.
enough said, really.

the TTTTT tracks goes int he percussion groups (or track in this case), the V in the vocals group and so on. the X is the FX tracks, which needs to be separate during this particulare screenshot, due to some painful cut n paste and destroy editing.

ohyeah, did i mention that rendering the whole file out, then playing back the rendered samples in arrangement view, gives me dropouts? -.-

so i had to do it this way.

now if you excuse me, ill go find the right forum for this. hah.

This is the best post I have seen that describes the hassles of working without safe groups. It gets much worse when using multiple sidechained compressors. I think this feature has got to be added in for the interim update I heard was going to come out six months after the initial release. Thats the version I will be waiting for because theres really nothing in Live 7 that catches my attention. Like some others I dont use any Live synths or drum machines except the occasional impulse as I have my own.

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:00 am

Angstrom wrote:well, that's just silly.
many people wouldn't want the orchestral stuff, and they certainly wouldn't want to be forced into paying for it. Unless you are suggesting that Ableton give it away. Which isn't going to happen is it?

I don't see how that one-size-fits-all approach is better
wait a minute your last line sheds a bit of light on this.
TR_606 wrote: Live 7 is going to do nothing to change would-be crack version users' minds.
oh well, boo hoo.

Yes thats right fanboy they should be charging double coz its a bargain as it is. what is it roughly for the full job $900? yeh thats a steal for a daw that cant do safe groups and has no groove q but you get a few cheesy synths.