Guitar Rig 3: Capturing RK movements during recording???

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:42 pm

I've just discovered that Ableton doesn't capture any Rig Kontrol movements during recording. Is this a known issue? If so, how do people cature WAH, Volume Swells, etc. while recording with Guitar Rig into Ableton?

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:43 am

Do the GR users on this BB use RK? Perhaps not. And hence using GR simply as a VST wouldn't cause any problems.

Any RK users out there wanna lend a hand?

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:57 am

I do not have the Rig Kontrol, but I do have GR3 and a FCB1010 foor controller. I am not too familiar with the way the RK works, but I am assuming it sends some kind of midi messages.

In this case you could:

1) Put the GR vst/au in a rack.
2) Map the knobs of the rack to the first set of VST parameters when expanding the VST. GR3 RK parameters are I belive the first 8 in sequence.
3) Go into Midi map mode
4) Map the RK signals to the rack controls. Done.

This works for me on the FCB1010.

the more difficult thing is to control "any" parameter from GR3 from a foorcontroler. This relates to the often discussed limitation that only 128 parameters are available in the VST from within ableton. Fortunately, the RIG Kontrol parameters are early on the list, so this should work.

If anyone knows a solution to control any parameter from within ableton pls let me know. I did not get that far.

Timur · Post by **Timur** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:57 am

No RK does not send Midi it sends its own host automation. The advantage is that it sends high resolution values to GR instead of the standard 7 bit Midi values. The disadvantage is that you cannot use it as an ordinary Midi controller. I'm using a FC-300 myself, because I don't like the fact that RK is only usable for GR and nothing else.

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:02 am

Ooh, bad luck. That will probably make the RK mainly useful for standalone operations. I guess I made the right choice by sticking with software version.

So, with the FC-300 do you use a similar approach as I described, or do you have something better?

Timur · Post by **Timur** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:06 am

I'm just starting to dig into everything and did not record anything using the FC-300 yet. But your approach sounds sound.

davec1 · Post by **davec1** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:22 am

I was very irritated when I found out the RK2 didn't send midi messages, cause when I bought GR2, the product description pretty much suggested it could do that.

that said, I think you can still record RK automation data. at least other host programs can do it, but I don't know how exactly....

mbenigni · Post by **mbenigni** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:09 pm

I've been whining on and on about MIDI support for the RK's for years, and have discussed several potential solutions in great detail on the NI forum, but for whatever reason they just ignore these requests.

The good news is that most hosts will allow you to record automation without recording MIDI. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll test this out and get back to you. There should be a way to arm VST automation before you record, resulting in envelopes that reflect changes in plugin state.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:58 pm

mbenigni wrote:I've been whining on and on about MIDI support for the RK's for years, and have discussed several potential solutions in great detail on the NI forum, but for whatever reason they just ignore these requests.

The good news is that most hosts will allow you to record automation without recording MIDI. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll test this out and get back to you. There should be a way to arm VST automation before you record, resulting in envelopes that reflect changes in plugin state.

Ah man, that'd be great. Thanks.

thumperjack · Post by **thumperjack** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:50 am

on a semi decent computer how is the latency playing through GR live? noticeable?

mbenigni · Post by **mbenigni** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:33 pm

shtreimel, apologies - sat down to do this last night and got distracted actually playing the guitar for a change. But I will get back to you on this ASAP.

thumperjack, I think there are a couple of variables - CPU speed and memory are important, but the audio interface and drivers also impact on latency. On a fast desktop with a high-end interface you can get latency down as low as (a reported) 2ms, but in practical use, where I can run other plug-ins, and count on stability etc, I usually operate with about 8ms latency.

thumperjack · Post by **thumperjack** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:50 pm

i mean playing live with the rig kontrol. it's it's own audio interface. so say with a 2.0ghz core2duo processor and 2 gig of ram...ish. it's it worth selling my PODxt?

mbenigni · Post by **mbenigni** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:57 pm

i mean playing live with the rig kontrol. it's it's own audio interface. so say with a 2.0ghz core2duo processor and 2 gig of ram...ish. it's it worth selling my PODxt?

Gotcha. Well, my laptop is 2GHz Core Duo (not Core2) with 1G of RAM, and I usually run GR3 in Live along with a VSTi or two, and a couple of plugs in return channels. That's with the RK2. The RK3 has higher sample rate and bit-depth options, and probably performs same or better in terms of latency. So your computer should be more than up to running GR with latency down where you wouldn't notice it.

That said, I wouldn't rush into selling the PODxt. There's something to be said for the convenience of the guitar processor and pedal all in one purpose-built unit. The POD is always going to be more reliable on stage than a laptop. If you can afford it, better to own both for a while, and then keep the one that proves best for your purposes.

mbenigni · Post by **mbenigni** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:04 pm

shtreimel, apologies - sat down to do this last night and got distracted actually playing the guitar for a change. But I will get back to you on this ASAP.

More on this... I checked the Live 6 manual (p. 219, 17.1 Recording Automation) and it says:

"Creating automation is straightforward: All changes of a control that occur while the Control Bar’s Record switch is on become automation. Try recording automation for a control, for instance a mixer volume slider. After recording, play back what you have just recorded to see and hear the effect of the control movement. You will notice that a little LED has appeared in the slider thumb to indicate that the control is now automated. Try recording
automation for track panning and the Track Activator switch as well; their automation LEDs appear in their upper left corners."

Now, I assume this applies to Macro controls in Instrument Racks, so this is one solution at any rate. The problem is that a VST will only expose up to 128 parameters to the host, whereas Guitar Rig has approximately a bzillion of them. (IMO GR should only expose parameters for active modules; unfortunately it exposes a smokescreen of every parameter in every module, in no particular order.) I really wish Steinberg or whoever is in control of the VST spec (is anyone?) would get rid of the 128 parameter limitation, but that seems like a pipe dream.

So... I'm not sure how well this will serve you, but drop GR3 into an Instrument Rack, assign some macros to GR parameters mapped to the RK, and then try recording movement of those macros (as described above.) I'll see if I can get anything better figured out myself.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:29 pm

mbenigni wrote:So... I'm not sure how well this will serve you, but drop GR3 into an Instrument Rack, assign some macros to GR parameters mapped to the RK, and then try recording movement of those macros (as described above.) I'll see if I can get anything better figured out myself.

Ah man, thanks a bunch. The above seems awfully confusing to do basic volume/wah actions. Not sure how to assign macros to GR...guess I'll crack the manual and see how it's done.