live/max question

accdntly · Post by **accdntly** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:29 pm

why should i buy max? do i need msp? (was the msp question stupid?) my goal is to program sporadic, generative sequences of samples/sounds. im very curious of eno's generative music concepts and would like to apply myself to this. im a huge fan of gaiser and b. pronsato and i know they use max.

accdntly · Post by **accdntly** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:30 pm

ps- is the application really that difficult?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:37 pm

do you have any experience coding?

if you have the patience it's a headtrip to use, if you don't, forget it.

download the 30 day FREE trial version, start going through the tutorials.

it's really low level, don't expect to make anything like your heroes for quite some time.

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:42 pm

What about the new release of max/msp? Does that look like it will cut down on the headtrips/aches?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:44 pm

it will help but it's still a low level programming language. you have to spend some time with it learning the basic commands, learning how to stitch them together and how the language works.

accdntly · Post by **accdntly** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:45 pm

i dont know a thing about coding.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:48 pm

try the demo.

if you've done some coding you'd be familiar with the patience required to learn a new language. the problem with computers is that they do exactly what we tell them to do and you need that patience to stop and check what you told it to do.

max isn't like C or java or other languages, it has different constructs and wasn't developed the same way.

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:49 pm

so what programming are the big boys using, the guys that are so past writing music that they just want the computer to do it for them

gomi · Post by **gomi** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:51 pm

beats me wrote:What about the new release of max/msp? Does that look like it will cut down on the headtrips/aches?

The new version is basically the same as the old version, it just looks different.

That being said, I may actually take the plunge when 5 comes out.
Been meaning to drown myself in max for awhile.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:52 pm

beats me wrote:so what programming are the big boys using, the guys that are so past writing music that they just want the computer to do it for them

max/msp is one of them.

kyma comes to mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyma_(soun ... _language)

Pd is an offshoot from Max/msp

or just write in C/C++/C#/Java/DSP assembly whatever language you want.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:54 pm

gomi wrote:
beats me wrote:What about the new release of max/msp? Does that look like it will cut down on the headtrips/aches?

The new version is basically the same as the old version, it just looks different.

That being said, I may actually take the plunge when 5 comes out.
Been meaning to drown myself in max for awhile.

didn't they rewrite some of the core code for max/msp?? I thought some of the changes went beyond the GUI.

gomi · Post by **gomi** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:02 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
gomi wrote:
beats me wrote:What about the new release of max/msp? Does that look like it will cut down on the headtrips/aches?

The new version is basically the same as the old version, it just looks different.

That being said, I may actually take the plunge when 5 comes out.
Been meaning to drown myself in max for awhile.
didn't they rewrite some of the core code for max/msp?? I thought some of the changes went beyond the GUI.

But it all operates the same I thought.

I think we'll actually be getting it where I work (they teach it) I can ask the
instructor. He's been using Max since it came out.

rasputin · Post by **rasputin** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:38 pm

Max/MSP

Some ++: super mature, stable, supported, been used for years by musicians, sound designers, academics, guruwizards.

--: somewhat unintuitive, all but the most simple patches get hideously complicated, somewhat high cost (for non academic customers)

My frustration has always been that I couldn't print out a patch and study it. I'm a lot more comfortable with pages of code.

So to that end, I've been exploring Csound and Chuck. Both are free. Csound is the hoary great grandpappy of sound design languages. Lots of negatives but on the other hand there are megabytes of examples and tools out there for the taking. Also runs on Linux, MacOS and Windows. Chuck is a much newer, much less mature language, oriented towards real-time performance much like Live. The bitchen thing about Chuck is the cool results you can get from very simple programs.

From memory:

http://www.csounds.com

http://cs.chuck.cs.princeton.edu

People say that if you have the $$ to spend, look towards a commercial application like Reaktor. More modest (and much cheaper) apps that are still pretty powerful include Cakewalk's Rapture and the fantastic u-he Zebra.

Just a few ideas off the top of my cabeza/tete/kopf

r.

corygilbert · Post by **corygilbert** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:36 pm

I'd never coded before, and assigned myself a "class" of doing Max tutorial lessons each night after work. I'd do the tutorial, attempt to construct the patch as instructed, I'd use the object definition window to try to fully understand how and what each object could be used. And then I'd try to use the new object(s) in an idea of my own and try to get my head around the concept of each object.
It's not too hard to learn, just realize it's like learning to play guitar or to paint, at first it's kinda boring and repeatative, but it gets a lot more fun quick.
At first I'd go through maybe 2-3 tutorials a night, some later ones maybe 1 a night.
Start with the Max tutorials up to maybe lesson 7-10, then maybe start doing some of the MSP tut's. You can do it and use the free full version for a month before it stops working. If you really try to treat it like a class, you'll know by the end of the month whether it's something you'd like to buy.
Hope you find it useful, you can do stuff that no one other music app will let you do.
Good luck.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:48 pm

great advice!!

I always find tutorial take forever to do because I end up getting sidetracked playing with them or going from help to help to help file, controlling random stuff with my BCR or keys or just making awfully wonderful sounds.