Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes

forge · Post by **forge** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:18 pm

Hi Verne

I know what you're saying, but Ableton won't stop at 4.01 if there's any problems - their criteria for judging how many people were still having problems out of many many must have been satisfied that it was a risk worth taking, I've been fine since b9, as have many others - maybe you're in the unlucky few

the point is, Native instruments or Steinberg might be seemingly indifferent to bugs and only give occasional sub-releases with a big fan fare, but I've been there since 1.5 and in all that time have never got that impression of the Abes - they answer support request and bug posts on the forum quickly and efficiently almost all the time and fix a problem if they can as soon as they can.

Personally I think NAMM was too big a marketing thing to miss and it was definitely near enough because you know whatever bugs are still there will be fixed in sub-releases that you might have to wait a couple of weeks for at absolute most - and the example you gave was hardware which is totally different - you don't have the luxury of downloading updates in a couple of days from a website so it HAS to be right

v3 sat on 3.04 for most of it's life nd 2 went up to 2.12, and like I think Bernd said, by now they've got the code pretty tight, so aside from the unlucky few it's getting pretty slick and I don't think you'll have to wait long

anyway, not that I'm their lap dog, I just thought I'd throw in my 2c that they'll iron out the bugs asap unlike many others.

loophead · Post by **loophead** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:10 pm

It was simply awesome ! The level of dedication to detail, the follow ups to our posts, the frequency and success of the fixes implemented let alone the willingness to listen to and implement OUR ideas and wishes to make what each of US felt was a vital addition... well it was stunning !

Did each and every one of us get every specific thing we wished included in the release. No. How could we. Not enough time if we had months instead of weeks. But I for one feel more than confident, that with future upgrades, a majority of these will be included. Will we ever have everything ? Probably not, but guys thats life. I am confident each of us will feel we will get more than we expected and that is better than fine !

I have never seen something like this and I don't expect to often come across it again. This was, and is, a very special case. For those who feel they need to post their 'knee jerk' reaction to their special circumstance I would hope you would try to follow through before you vent. These people at Ableton deserve (have proven they deserve) better respect than that. And I for one hope that your specific issues are resolved in a courteous and timely way. I have no fear that from Ableton they will be.

Realize that they have been slamming for weeks and the dust has not settled. Use the forum to open proper dialogs with those of us here who with sincerity, are willing and able to help you with many of these issues.

I hope that you are able in your moment of frustration to not offer conflict. We will help. We are having fun. We welcome you to join us.

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:22 pm

Look - I am probably one of Ableton's biggest fans and always go "over the top" to spread the word whenever and wherever I can.

Sure they worked really hard for this release - but that's the nature of the software biz, just as are bugs. If any of the programmers had the luxury of sleeping in their own beds over the past month they were lucky. When I was working with Microsoft their programmers literally lived in their offices. Goes with the territory.

The point here is - I reported a bug numerous times that showed up right at the start of the beta testing. It has gone unresolved through to the release code - I was actually waiting for a beta 13 so I could test it yet again and was surprised to find they went straight from beta 12 to release. Especially considering I reported this bug in beta 12.

Bernt has acknowledged this one slipped through the cracks and promised they will get on with it. I will not test the software further until I get a release that resolves this problem. Perhaps this is just a minor problem with a cheap VST - perhaps it's some other hidden problem that has yet to rear it's ugly head. Don't know until it works. That's what a beta program is supposed to be all about.

And, yes I suppose one could argue that with the luxury of downloadable updates via the web developers don't have to be as careful as they once were. But that only holds true if the marketplace becomes complacent and doesn't hold their feet to the fire. I'm not there yet and hope I never get there. My clients demand I get it right first time out and I don't see why I shouldn't expect the same from those I deal with.

I suggest we let this thread rest until we see if 4.0.2 doesn't resolve the problem. Then we can all go back to cheerleading a great piece of software from a great company.

patch boy · Post by **patch boy** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:20 pm

This piece of software allowed me to create like over an album worth
of new songs (17 in fact) based on it funtionality and power capability... Hell i wanted to pre order live in the beta stages everyones system is not the same and am not going to feed into someone ridiculing abletons product... with some el-cheapo software studio config.... BTW people should realize it is only going to get better from here. And it is true allot of the commotion with the bugs in the beta stages seemed like to me
it that the real problem was some where between the chair and the keyboard... any way dont bite my lines.. what ever i post is real shit..
cool out abelton's Live is not going no where no time soon they are ahead of the game like NI AND PHds.

snapshot · Post by **snapshot** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:20 am

" I’m hugely disappointed and don’t recommend anyone buy Live 4.0.1 until the known bugs have been fixed.
Hey forge – pre-purchasing is one thing, selling unfinished code as “final” is another altogether.
You only have one chance to make a first impression and all you do by shrink-wrapping a half-baked product is to create a bunch of very expensive boomerangs. As it was, we got them done properly and on time. I got a call from Nashville last night telling me Victor Wooten dropped by the booth and walked away smiling with a shiny new EnvelopePhaser under his arm. Say no more!

When I was working with Microsoft their programmers literally lived in their offices. Goes with the territory. "

Sorry Verne, but I see your post as a complete self serving self promotion for you and your products/accomplishments.

I too, have been using Live since version 1.0, and just because you found an issue with one VST that doesn't work well with Live 4 doesn't mean we all have the same problems as yours.

You state that you worked for MS; when, and what year did MS EVER release a version of their software that was bug free? I'm not sure it has ever happened, nor do I expect it to either!! Most of my friends that use MS stuff have their share of bugs and problems, that's why I quit using their software at all anymore, but I sure don't go on MS's board and tell people not to buy it because it has bugs in in and isn't ready for prime time! If I did, I'd be spending all my time there.

I'm sure you've done great things in your short life, and I'm sure you'll be doing many more, that we may or may not hear about, but just because you're having an issue with a plug-in doesn't seem to warrant such an outrageous statement to not recommend a product that many of us just love and use on a daily basis without any issues at all!!

Next time you're out to market yourself and wonderful deeds, pick a board that maybe doesn't have so many happy users on it first.

Wow, this is the harshest post I've ever posted on the internet since 1994! Guess you hit a nerve from this user who just happens to love Live, and doesn't think I'll live long enough to ever see the "perfect" piece of bug free software!

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:31 am

[flame retardant suit on]

I posted an "outrageous" thread in this forum because the threads I posted in the beta forum were not being dealt with.

It is because of this thread that Ableton has acknowledged the problem and has stated they will be on it quickly. It has served it's purpose.

Sorry you think I'm doing this to be self-serving - because I'm not. I'm trying to help a company I happen to like a great deal make a product I happen to love even better than it already is.

[/flame retardant suit off]

hrdvsion · Post by **hrdvsion** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:29 am

when i am monitoring reason through live and i either close the in/out view or switch to the arrangement view, the sound that was coming in from reason is now "frozen" causing a buzzing sound or nothing at all.
there is one other user here that has noted this but tech can't seem to get the same result.
any help?

drez · Post by **drez** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:26 am

Verne Andru wrote:[flame retardant suit on]

I posted an "outrageous" thread in this forum because the threads I posted in the beta forum were not being dealt with.

It is because of this thread that Ableton has acknowledged the problem and has stated they will be on it quickly. It has served it's purpose.

Sorry you think I'm doing this to be self-serving - because I'm not. I'm trying to help a company I happen to like a great deal make a product I happen to love even better than it already is.

[/flame retardant suit off]

But in the end, you create a perception problem that all you are is a squeaky wheel. This will eventually get you nowhere because no one will want to help you, me included.

Through the beta, I saw lots of posts from alot of people. Not all of mine got answered, but that's OK. They aren't Microsoft, they don't have thousdands of programmers, and they didn't sleep much. Give them a break! They said that they would come back from vacation (well deserved) and hit it hard. Your post makes the product sound like it is completely unusable which couldn't be farther from the truth. By your 4th post, you completely backtrack to saying that its really just 1 VSTi that you have a problem with!

In the end, all you have as leverage with people is how you are perceived by them. Ruining that perception will hurt in the long run and ironically, it only takes a short time to do it.

For example, I probably won't read your next thread or even your next post. Was it worth it

Verne Andru wrote: I got a call from Nashville last night telling me Victor Wooten dropped by the booth and walked away smiling with a shiny new EnvelopePhaser under his arm. Say no more!

And how many copies of Live4 did people walk away with?

Good luck with Live.

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:46 pm

You're certainly welcome to your opinion drez. My objective was to prod Ableton into fixing a critical bug and not win a popularity contest. However, based on the response to this thread this will be the last time I spend my free time participating in a public beta program.

The usability of Live 4 is a relative call. Since that particular VSTi happens to be one I use constantly and it causes my system to crash, then from my POV Live 4 is not usable. You may use different plugs and not have any problems – which is great for you and I wish you all the best. But the whole point of a beta program is test your software as widely as possible and get it working on all configurations – not just a select few. If you take a look in the bugs section of this forum you’ll find that, while I was perhaps the first and most vocal about some lingering problems in Live 4, others are starting to voice many of the same issues.

My reference to Microsoft was to try and make the point that in the software business, regardless of how big or small your company is, the pressure on the development crew in the run-up to a release is enormous and it is an expectation in the business that people put their personal lives on hold and work around the clock. Yes, I empathise with the Ableton crew for a lot of hard work and a job well done, but it is simply a reality of the software business and goes with the territory. Unless you’ve been there, it appears like they’ve moved mountains – which perhaps they have – but all I’m trying to say is that moving mountains is part of the job description and all in a days work. So is responding to your beta testers who are spending their own time in the good faith that their reports will be taken seriously and responded to in an appropriate manner.

Now can we please let this thread die and get on with making music?

loophead · Post by **loophead** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:08 pm

Vern your bug is not a critical issue. Comparing a stomp box to a DAW is bullshit and you are self serving. I was involved in creating the most sophisticated DSP processors in the world, so don't think you can blow air up my trousers. Get over it. You don't want to purchase then don't purchase.

The world does not revolve around you and your one vst. Look around the forum. There are several vsts which need to be delt with. Most of those at this point are problems that the vst developer in question needs to deal with (motu for example).

It has already been shown that at least a portion of your issue was USER ERROR as were the bulk of the B12 bug postings. You have an issue with Ableton email them directly.

We don't expect you to admit your an idiot but you postings tell the tale. To post your pathetic needs in such a vicious manner is reprehensible.

So flame retardent suit or not, from me to you, get bent !

EnjoyRC · Post by **EnjoyRC** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:16 pm

Verne Andru wrote:I posted an "outrageous" thread in this forum because the threads I posted in the beta forum were not being dealt with.

Try emailing Ableton directly! They respond very well to emails.

drez · Post by **drez** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:33 pm

Verne Andru wrote:You're certainly welcome to your opinion drez. My objective was to prod Ableton into fixing a critical bug and not win a popularity contest. However, based on the response to this thread this will be the last time I spend my free time participating in a public beta program.

It is not a critical bug. Your favorite VSTi not workiing does not a critical bug make. "Greater good", Verne...not the "good for Verne". Your VSTi not getting fixed does NOT mean they shouldn't release the software. Microsoft releases almost all of their OS's before vendors even have Drivers that work with it!

As for spending time in a public beta program, many have spent countless hours in the beta forum and you know what? They got helped because they got involved in the ENTIRE process, not just their one bug. Trying to reproduce other bugs and testing with demo VSTi's...these guys deserve the credit for "participating". You come in, have one issue, don't get any attention, and then whine. That's not what a beta program is for and if you have the cred's you say you do, you would understand that.

Verne Andru wrote: The usability of Live 4 is a relative call. Since that particular VSTi happens to be one I use constantly and it causes my system to crash, then from my POV Live 4 is not usable. You may use different plugs and not have any problems – which is great for you and I wish you all the best. But the whole point of a beta program is test your software as widely as possible and get it working on all configurations – not just a select few. If you take a look in the bugs section of this forum you’ll find that, while I was perhaps the first and most vocal about some lingering problems in Live 4, others are starting to voice many of the same issues.

The lingering issues have absolutley zero to do with them getting the software out the door.

Why? Because you have the option of NOT upgrading to it! You can stay on Live3 and never use ANY VSTi's in it at all. Your bug is fixed! Since you got to participate in the beta, you knew the issues and what would be available on release. Nobody is forcing you to upgrade, and if you didn't have the functionallity before, than you should stop your crying and be patient. Live4 works for countless others, so I'm glad they got it out the door because it works for me.

Verne Andru wrote: My reference to Microsoft was to try and make the point that in the software business, regardless of how big or small your company is, the pressure on the development crew in the run-up to a release is enormous and it is an expectation in the business that people put their personal lives on hold and work around the clock. Yes, I empathise with the Ableton crew for a lot of hard work and a job well done, but it is simply a reality of the software business and goes with the territory. Unless you’ve been there, it appears like they’ve moved mountains – which perhaps they have – but all I’m trying to say is that moving mountains is part of the job description and all in a days work. So is responding to your beta testers who are spending their own time in the good faith that their reports will be taken seriously and responded to in an appropriate manner.

You only had one issue! How many of the other bugs did you try to reproduce?? I didn't see you posting all over the place in response to their plea's to confirm bugs! You didn't participate, you only wanted your problem fixed, but didn't want to help others. You have no credibility in crying about Abletons lack of support when, in turn, you didn't support the beta program!

Did you see how many threads they had to try and respond to?? I was thankful they could answer half as many as they did. Coders answering posts is amazing! They mixed it up with the beta folks and it was a great experience.

Verne Andru wrote: Now can we please let this thread die and get on with making music?

How are you going to do that without your one VSTi?

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:07 pm

loophead wrote:I was involved in creating the most sophisticated DSP processors in the world, so don't think you can blow air up my trousers.

OK - so by your definition your comments above are also self-serving. Big deal. At least mine were directed towards a constructive purpose - you're just slagging for the sake of slagging.

loophead wrote:Get over it. You don't want to purchase then don't purchase.

The point is that I WANT TO PURCHASE but won't until the problems are fixed.

loophead wrote:Look around the forum. There are several vsts which need to be delt with.

Great - I'm not alone. One more beta round would have resolved these issues prior to release. My problem happens to be with a super-stable VSTi that works flawlessly with Cubase SX. Besides - Bernt has already admitted this is an Live 4 problem, not the plugs.

loophead wrote:It has already been shown that at least a portion of your issue was USER ERROR

I had a problem with 2 plugs through the testing phase. I only used one to test B12 and stopped when it crashed my system and reported the problem. I did what is expected of beta testers - test, crash and report.

loophead wrote:We don't expect you to admit your an idiot but you postings tell the tale.

OK - "I'm an idiot." Feel better? Now can we get on with more productive things than slagging a faithful Live user who reported a bug on this forum? Or you just into venting your spleen in public?

One of the things that was really nice about this forum back in version 1 days was that it was a community of Live users who worked to support each other. It lacked the fanaticism and juvenile vitriolic behaviour that was so prevalent on the Cubase forum. It’s funny how times have changed.

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:10 pm

drez wrote: How are you going to do that without your one VSTi?

Easy - I'll keep using Cubase SX where the plug continues to run flawlessly.

loophead · Post by **loophead** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:19 pm

Vern wrote:

"... At least mine were directed towards a constructive purpose....

.... was that it was a community of Live users who worked to support each other...

... test, crash and report..."

No vern you were doing the opposite of being constructive, thats the point.

Your posts was the opposite of 'community' and had nothing to do with supporting the community.

I guess you forgot to add 'start wining'

Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes

i can cosign that ableton live 4.0 beta or not version.

my problem with live