When a delay is not a delay.

pixelbox · Post by **pixelbox** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:21 pm

Hi all!
Those who know me, know this...I'm as dumb as a door post. However, I've recently been occupying my music-time with reading (see? dumb!). There are a lot of cool little things that us Live/music production NOOBS don't know, that are easy to explain, and make you feel smart! Here is one of them...

When a Delay is not a Delay

I learned this great little tip from the book, "Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snowman.

If you have a drum beat, bassline, or anything really, that you want to stand out in your mix, here is a simple way to make your track seem more full and have a more robust tone. Assign a (simple) delay to your track, and set the feedback low (5% - 10%) and the repeat at anything UNDER 30ms. The human ear cannot separate two sounds if they are that close to each other in time. What you hear instead of an echo, is a nice, fattened up signal without increasing your gain (dB), that will sit more prominently in your mix. This technique works best with a bass line that drives your tune. It can really liven it up!

It's these little "low hanging fruits" that really keep me inspired to keep learning more about producing.

Atomikat · Post by **Atomikat** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:32 pm

Nice tip...!!!

patrickkidd · Post by **patrickkidd** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:38 pm

I don't understand. You get a phase effect out of this, which in no way preserves the original sound.

bleepsnbreaks · Post by **bleepsnbreaks** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am

You might be using a delay with too much feedback if its phasing, or too short or long a delay time or something. Im no expert myself

Dance Music Manual is a great book for the beginner, I really enjoyed it, some good fundamentals in there....

bensuthers · Post by **bensuthers** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:37 am

using an early reflections program can be useful for this to.

pixelbox · Post by **pixelbox** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:16 am

patrickkidd wrote:I don't understand. You get a phase effect out of this, which in no way preserves the original sound.

Nope. No phasing because the signal is actually delayed a few (>30) ms. Phasing would occur only if you doubled the signal.

Instead of guessing or imagining the results, I challenge you to actually TRY it.

jeskola · Post by **jeskola** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:19 pm

Is that not the same as chorus?

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:37 pm

jeskola wrote:Is that not the same as chorus?

Chorus would involve more than one extra voice, and I think the delays are usually a bit longer than 30ms... plus you'd usually add a slight bit of re/detuning to the added voices.

At least I think that's how a chorus works:)

pixelbox · Post by **pixelbox** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:05 pm

jeskola wrote:Is that not the same as chorus?

Please read my reply above to patrickkidd. Same applies to you. It either is not a chorus, or my mind is possessed by a chorus-demon and everything I hear has chorus applied to it, and this use of delay is canceling it out. Either way its a win.

Funny enough, the sound of me tapping on my keyboard doesn't sound swirly or phase-y at all.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:00 pm

effects that people call chorus are often short delays with modulating times and some feedback. sometime they are detuned as well.

try this:

use your simple delay with a short delay, toss a little bit of feedback and change the delay time in small increments. You should get somethinhg that sounds like a flanger, basically.

the orig trick can indeed cause some phase issues, but it can also be great. I usually use it on hi hats and stuff like that, y'know, mid-hi to hi freq and short hard transients, but obviously you can use it on anything, just check with your ears if it's doing something good or not.

also for fun, try using both sides of the simple delay and leave one on zero, and the other very short. Notice the pan effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect

.lm.

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:29 pm

nice way to muddy your bass. why not just get a robust tone that works in the first place?

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:32 pm

dj superflat wrote:nice way to muddy your bass.

or possibly straight up cancel it out...

..but i don't believe in rules other than use your ears.

.lm.

pixelbox · Post by **pixelbox** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:27 pm

dj superflat wrote:nice way to muddy your bass.

had the exact opposite effect during my experiments. I agree with finding a better tone first being better, but if your awesome tone isn't sitting in the mix just right, I'd personally try this technique before I spent hours or days trying to tweak or find a new sound for my bassline.

I've at least learned another thing...Now I know why no one posts useful tips or other information. This is not my idea, people, I got this information from a very popular book. Go "baw" the author, not me. I certanly won't be offering any more tips I've learned anymore...I don't need the hassle.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:33 pm

ahhhh, c'mon now.

you need to man up! it's just an internet forum. no need to bug because someone has some shit to say. Personally i appreciate your input and i'm sure others do too.

.lm.

pixelbox · Post by **pixelbox** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:52 pm