Separate Groove Amount for Each MIDI Clip

midiguru · Post by **midiguru** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm

I don't know whether this post belongs in Tips & Tricks or in Wish List, so I'm going to put it here in the hope that just possibly I'm missing something obvious.

The manual (p. 105) makes it appear that the amount of swing/shuffle (aka "groove") is global for the project rather than being applied to individual clips. It appears I can switch a given clip to Straight, Swing 8, Swing 16, or Swing 32, but that's the extent of my control over separate clips.

My question is, how (other than by editing one MIDI note at a time with the mouse) can I give different amounts of shuffle to different MIDI clips?

This just HAS to be possible, doesn't it? How could anyone ever consider Live 7 (or, indeed, Live 5) a completed program if it didn't have separate groove amounts for each MIDI clip?

Hoping you can help....

--Jim Aikin

hesed · Post by **hesed** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:51 am

i use a trick for this.....

switch the grid of midi clip to "narrowest" and move the note left or right to have groove change. is usefull also for create amazing shuffle if used only on certain intruments (snare,hihat)

Hope this can help you

glamourboy · Post by **glamourboy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:47 pm

groove quantize is a much requested feature. this "global swing" is a disgrace. i think even fruityloops got rid of it.

jeskola · Post by **jeskola** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:02 pm

hesed wrote:i use a trick for this.....

switch the grid of midi clip to "narrowest" and move the note left or right to have groove change. is usefull also for create amazing shuffle if used only on certain intruments (snare,hihat)

Hope this can help you

You can also move the track delay forward or back slightly!

Brian Ffar · Post by **Brian Ffar** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:57 pm

I would suggest turning the grid completely off, and then just start moving midi notes around manually until you get the groove you're looking for. You'll notice that after you turn the grid back on, your subsequent notes will snap to the grid, and to a new grid that is based on your previous notes that you moved off of it.

djgroovy · Post by **djgroovy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:19 pm

Or you can try this trick, if you dont mind losing the midi, because it will become audio. You can always leave this for the end of the project.

- Set the groove amount you want for the first clip, along with the quantize setting (8th, 16th, 32nd).
- Freeze that track.
- Copy the clip to an audio track.

Do these same steps again for the other clips, one time for each groove amount (can be more than 1 clip).

After you're done, set groove amount to 0.

It's complicated, but it's possible as a workaround.

So, here's a vote for a "per clip groove amount" feature.

midiguru · Post by **midiguru** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:31 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, folks. I had already considered (a) setting the groove and then turning the MIDI clip into audio and (b) manually editing one note at a time.

Both are ... well, they're useful in a pinch, but they're sort of Stone Age workarounds, IMO. On the order of, "No, there's no screwdriver in the toolkit, but you can bang on the screw with a hammer!"

This baffles me.

I've started working on a review of Live 7 for Mix magazine. Like most mags these days, they're keen to have their reviewers use the music gear in actual real-world situations. This is an admirable trend, don't get me wrong. Trouble is, in the absence of per-clip groove control, I would personally never use Live for composing and producing my music. Of what value are the other extremely cool features if you can't get your mitts on the friggin' groove?

Being able to extract REX files is brilliant! The new synths rock. Tempo and time signature changes are vital, and I was overjoyed to see them finally added. But ... no groove control? Why can't I extract a groove from that REX file MIDI data and quantize my bass part to it???

Oh, well ... back to Cubase. It's sort of a dinosaur, but it's also a mature MIDI sequencer.

--Jim Aikin

metastatik · Post by **metastatik** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:36 pm

Set the groove amount to what you need for your first MIDI clip and record it to another MIDI track to create a new MIDI clip with the groove embedded. You have to turn Record Quantize to “off” for this to work. Also, you’ll need to set the new MIDI clip to “Straight”.

You can do this for as many MIDI clips as you need. It’s not ideal by any stretch, but it works.

midiguru · Post by **midiguru** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:24 pm

metastatik wrote:Set the groove amount to what you need for your first MIDI clip and record it to another MIDI track to create a new MIDI clip with the groove embedded. You have to turn Record Quantize to “off” for this to work. Also, you’ll need to set the new MIDI clip to “Straight”.

You can do this for as many MIDI clips as you need. It’s not ideal by any stretch, but it works.

Yes, that's a more elegant solution than the others that have been suggested. Thanks!

--Jim Aikin

Idonotlikebroccoli · Post by **Idonotlikebroccoli** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:23 pm

This is definitely a much needed feature, along with more groove kinds than swing 8, 16 and 32. I don't mind doing it by hand, and I do get good results that way, but some times, I'd prefer an easier and quicker solution.

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:25 pm

You guys are all missing the point.

Groove quantizing falls somewhere between straight and triplets,

so to apply groove, take a straight quantized part, then hit "command U" to open q dialog.

If it's 100% at straight settings, then quantize it to triplets, but not 100%
triplet.

Try 20% triplets. It's the same way Logic works, and the same way ALL the old wares worked with so called 'groove'

midiguru · Post by **midiguru** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:36 pm

morerecords wrote:You guys are all missing the point.

Groove quantizing falls somewhere between straight and triplets,

so to apply groove, take a straight quantized part, then hit "command U" to open q dialog.

If it's 100% at straight settings, then quantize it to triplets, but not 100%
triplet.

Try 20% triplets. It's the same way Logic works, and the same way ALL the old wares worked with so called 'groove'

An excellent suggestion -- thanks! Note, however, that you have to do it in two steps. First, quantize to straight eighths (or 16ths) with 100% strength. Then quantize again to triplets with the strength setting to 20% or whatever. I haven't tried it yet, but this should produce the desired result, which is that the on-the-beat notes are nailed down, while the off-the-beat notes trail the beat slightly.

A technical note: None of this is about "groove" quantizing. That's a more sophisticated process involving templates with a separate timing definition for each note. (Cubase users will know what I'm talking about, and I'll bet Logic will do it too.) What we're describing here is called "shuffle," not "groove."

Adding groove templates to Live would be extremely useful, now that the MIDI data can be extracted from REX files. This would allow you to quantize your bass line to the drum beat in a REX file, which is not currently possible in Live, though it's easy to do in other sequencers.

--Jim Aikin

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:37 am

Glad I could help.

jlgrimes · Post by **jlgrimes** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:40 pm

Reason 4 new groove mixer handles this issue in a unique and creative way.

Most of the newer sequencer designs (Live, Fruityloops, Project 5, and Live) assumed than global swing was a necessity but most of them overlooked individualized swing settings.

All of these sequencers must overcome those obstacles they created as they mature. Reason's groove mixer was a great way to overcome that. It is still entirely nondestructive, and allows globalized and individualized swing control and allows you to determine what tracks you want to be affected by the global or group swing settings.