why is the note mapping in drum machines so weird?

[Amaury]

Hi Forge,

I was only talking about the very last problem you mentioned: if you drag a sample, to any drum rack's chain list, it will never set the chain to "ALL", ever, regardless how the Rack has been created.

Regards,
Amaury

but I'm not saying it should be set to all - I'm saying it should have the same note as the pad that the drum rack was created on

if you create a nested drum rack using a pad then the most likely reason you are doing it is so you can layer some drum sounds together

so why do any chains added to the chain list view in that rack now start taking the next available pads? there is no pad view in the nested drum rack so it is quite possible to drag to the chain list

I see what you're saying that the intention is just that you will hold ALT and drag to the pad - but I think there are definitely times when you are likely to use the chain list

more to the point it's just neater if the behaviour is still as you would expect

it seems as it is just as if once the PAD view idea was born then the chain list version of drum racks was not finished and these little things are just not working properly

I'd say that the set of rules would then look quite complicated: if the note a chain takes has to depend on how a rack is created, we'll face, that's my immediate feeling, situations that are no-go. Simple rules make it also easier to remember them.

The simple rule is that creating a chain by dragging a sample creates a new unique mapping if possible. There is an interface to layer sounds, and to avoid dealing with the chain list, and that is the pads.

I understand the immediate confusion, but, now, with some perspective, doesn't it seem to you an easy way to work?

Regards,
Amaury

[Amaury]

Hi Forge,

I was only talking about the very last problem you mentioned: if you drag a sample, to any drum rack's chain list, it will never set the chain to "ALL", ever, regardless how the Rack has been created.

Regards,
Amaury

but I'm not saying it should be set to all - I'm saying it should have the same note as the pad that the drum rack was created on

if you create a nested drum rack using a pad then the most likely reason you are doing it is so you can layer some drum sounds together

so why do any chains added to the chain list view in that rack now start taking the next available pads? there is no pad view in the nested drum rack so it is quite possible to drag to the chain list

I see what you're saying that the intention is just that you will hold ALT and drag to the pad - but I think there are definitely times when you are likely to use the chain list

more to the point it's just neater if the behaviour is still as you would expect

it seems as it is just as if once the PAD view idea was born then the chain list version of drum racks was not finished and these little things are just not working properly

I'd say that the set of rules would then look quite complicated: if the note a chain takes has to depend on how a rack is created, we'll face, that's my immediate feeling, situations that are no-go. Simple rules make it also easier to remember them.

The simple rule is that creating a chain by dragging a sample creates a new unique mapping if possible. There is an interface to layer sounds, and to avoid dealing with the chain list, and that is the pads.

I understand the immediate confusion, but, now, with some perspective, doesn't it seem to you an easy way to work?

Regards,
Amaury

[R.J.Dubya]

Hi Forge,

I was only talking about the very last problem you mentioned: if you drag a sample, to any drum rack's chain list, it will never set the chain to "ALL", ever, regardless how the Rack has been created.

Regards,
Amaury

but I'm not saying it should be set to all - I'm saying it should have the same note as the pad that the drum rack was created on

if you create a nested drum rack using a pad then the most likely reason you are doing it is so you can layer some drum sounds together

so why do any chains added to the chain list view in that rack now start taking the next available pads? there is no pad view in the nested drum rack so it is quite possible to drag to the chain list

I see what you're saying that the intention is just that you will hold ALT and drag to the pad - but I think there are definitely times when you are likely to use the chain list

more to the point it's just neater if the behaviour is still as you would expect

it seems as it is just as if once the PAD view idea was born then the chain list version of drum racks was not finished and these little things are just not working properly

The only reason I see to have a nested drum rack is not to layer drum sounds on one pad, but to process different drum sounds through the same channel with insert effects, yet keeping them on separate pads in the main drum rack. For example you want your kick, hihat and snare to go through the same compressor, but stay on different pads. So with this in mind, it sort of makes sense that if you drag a new sample to the rack view of a nested drum rack, that it would assign it to the next available pad. This way the new sample is in the same channel for processing, yet has its own note. If I wanted simply to layer drum sounds on one note/pad, I would definitely use an instrument rack, not a nested drum rack. I'm not sure if this is ableton's reasoning, but I think it makes sense if you think of it that way.

Do I make sense?

[forge]

I'd say that the set of rules would then look quite complicated: if the note a chain takes has to depend on how a rack is created, we'll face, that's my immediate feeling, situations that are no-go. Simple rules make it also easier to remember them.

The simple rule is that creating a chain by dragging a sample creates a new unique mapping if possible. There is an interface to layer sounds, and to avoid dealing with the chain list, and that is the pads.

well maybe it's because of the first bug where the Pad view doesnt work properly that I missed it but I had no idea there was a simple rule - it doesnt seem like it and no one else on the user side seems to get it either

maybe from a development point of view it makes sense, but the most obvious thing to me seems to be, if you want a drum rack on a pad then it is because you want to trigger all the samples on it at the same time -- anything different to that is 'specialist' and people who want that should be the ones who have to remember some rule

[forge]

The only reason I see to have a nested drum rack is not to layer drum sounds on one pad, but to process different drum sounds through the same channel with insert effects, yet keeping them on separate pads in the main drum rack. ...

really?

how would you do layered drums?

I dont know, but to me the concept of having a chain within a drum rack on a pad that is assigned to a different pad is a bit too confising to remember

maybe I just havent been thinking of it like that, but I dont think I'm alone

[R.J.Dubya]

The only reason I see to have a nested drum rack is not to layer drum sounds on one pad, but to process different drum sounds through the same channel with insert effects, yet keeping them on separate pads in the main drum rack. ...

really?

how would you do layered drums?

I dont know, but to me the concept of having a chain within a drum rack on a pad that is assigned to a different pad is a bit too confising to remember

maybe I just havent been thinking of it like that, but I dont think I'm alone

Like I said, for layered drums I would use an instrument rack on a drum rack pad. For example you've got a pad controlling a simpler, and you want to layer it on the same note. Group the simpler (not to drum rack!), and stack devices. Or just start with an instrument rack on the pad. I see absolutely no reason to use a nested drum rack for layering. I see that more for using multiple pads processed together (highlight chains in list and group to drum rack -presto! love it).

edit: I'll add that this is why I disagree with the drum machine hits being nested drum racks rather then instrument racks. It doesn't seem to serve the ideal purpose and just confuses things. And that is why I'm altering mine. However, I still like to use nested drum racks for processing things together, while keeping them on separate pads.

[forge]

The only reason I see to have a nested drum rack is not to layer drum sounds on one pad, but to process different drum sounds through the same channel with insert effects, yet keeping them on separate pads in the main drum rack. ...

really?

how would you do layered drums?

I dont know, but to me the concept of having a chain within a drum rack on a pad that is assigned to a different pad is a bit too confising to remember

maybe I just havent been thinking of it like that, but I dont think I'm alone

Like I said, for layered drums I would use an instrument rack on a drum rack pad. For example you've got a pad controlling a simpler, and you want to layer it. Group the simpler, stack devices. Or just start with an instrument rack on the pad. I see absolutely no reason to use a nested drum rack for layering. I see that more for using multiple pads processed together.

edit: I'll add that this is why I disagree with the drum machine hits being nested drum racks rather then instrument racks. It doesn't seem to serve the ideal purpose and just confuses things. And that is why I'm altering mine. However, I still like to use nested drum racks for processing things together, while keeping them on separate pads.

yeah - you're right instrument racks are definitely better for layering - I think maybe the probelm I'm having then is that the default behaviour when holding ALT and dragging a sample to another pad is to create a drum rack - and to me the most likely reason you would want to do it at all is to layer samples - so in a way you are encouranged to use drum rack for that

maybe if there was a new option itn the default folders "when creating nested rack in drum rack" where you could save a preset with an instrument rack

for me personally I wouldnt do what you described with the inserts that way - I'd probably just drag the ones I wanted to group out of the rack into a new one of it's own using the inline rack mixer so it was completely autonomous

[andydes]

how would you do layered drums?

I dont know, but to me the concept of having a chain within a drum rack on a pad that is assigned to a different pad is a bit too confising to remember

maybe I just havent been thinking of it like that, but I dont think I'm alone

I wouldn't thing of it as having a drum rack on a pad, but a drum rack in a chain. The drum pads are notes to show you what sample is being referenced. When the input is set to all for a sub rack, the drum rack looks the next layer down to pick up on the note(s) referenced in the sub rack to display the sample.

And yes, it's quite usful to group all the hats together to eq in one go. When you do this, a sub drum rack is created on that chain. The note input must be set to all on that chain and the pads take their respective sample names from the sub rack, where the individual notes are assigned.

Does that make sense?

Did I even understand your point?

I still think hot swap is broken in drum racks, though. And copying pads doesn't seem to work properly.

[R.J.Dubya]

really?

how would you do layered drums?

I dont know, but to me the concept of having a chain within a drum rack on a pad that is assigned to a different pad is a bit too confising to remember

maybe I just havent been thinking of it like that, but I dont think I'm alone

Like I said, for layered drums I would use an instrument rack on a drum rack pad. For example you've got a pad controlling a simpler, and you want to layer it. Group the simpler, stack devices. Or just start with an instrument rack on the pad. I see absolutely no reason to use a nested drum rack for layering. I see that more for using multiple pads processed together.

edit: I'll add that this is why I disagree with the drum machine hits being nested drum racks rather then instrument racks. It doesn't seem to serve the ideal purpose and just confuses things. And that is why I'm altering mine. However, I still like to use nested drum racks for processing things together, while keeping them on separate pads.

yeah - you're right instrument racks are definitely better for layering - I think maybe the probelm I'm having then is that the default behaviour when holding ALT and dragging a sample to another pad is to create a drum rack - and to me the most likely reason you would want to do it at all is to layer samples - so in a way you are encouranged to use drum rack for that

maybe if there was a new option itn the default folders "when creating nested rack in drum rack" where you could save a preset with an instrument rack

for me personally I wouldnt do what you described with the inserts that way - I'd probably just drag the ones I wanted to group out of the rack into a new one of it's own using the inline rack mixer so it was completely autonomous

When you create a new nested drum rack from existing sounds the way I describe it does still create a new in-line autonomous rack mixer. Same thing really.

To be honest though, I haven't tried any ALT dragging. Just haven't needed to. Sounds like perhaps the default behavior is less than ideal. I'll certainly give it a try when I get home and see if fits in my own personal drum rack paradigm in my head.

[andydes]

Did I even understand your point?

Actually, I don't think I did. Sorry. Carry on.

[R.J.Dubya]

I still think hot swap is broken in drum racks, though. And copying pads doesn't seem to work properly.

Yeah, hot swapping definitely doesn't work properly with nested drum racks. You'll get the new device put inside the existing nested drum rack. In some cases, a nested drum rack within a nested drum rack. That's just crazy. The point of hotswapping is to replace, not to keep stacking inside like those crazy little Russian painted eggs inside each other that keep getting smaller and smaller.... (Is that even a thing or did I completely make that up?)

[forge]

When you create a new nested drum rack from existing sounds the way I describe it does still create a new in-line autonomous rack mixer. Same thing really.

yes but to be honest I'm one of the ones not entirely sure I like the direction Live is heading in with all these millions of nested things you can open all over the place


I'm definitely one of the ones drawn to Live for it's simplicity and it's really starting to not feel simple any more in some places

[v00d00ppl]

does anyone here have the download file for the original drum machines presets (not sounds), i want to start all over with midi mapping them by writing a new preset on the akai mpd24 so there are no chromatic shifts. i tried reinstalling the live pack ut that wouldn't overwrite my settings.

[andydes]

yes but to be honest I'm one of the ones not entirely sure I like the direction Live is heading in with all these millions of nested things you can open all over the place


I'm definitely one of the ones drawn to Live for it's simplicity and it's really starting to not feel simple any more in some places

Wait til we have mutiple recording takes stacked up in a track and group tracks everywhere. Whooa!

I think it makes it easier. Never liked having loads of audio tracks all over the shop for routing drums / side chaining etc. Just got messy too quickly.

[R.J.Dubya]

does anyone here have the download file for the original drum machines presets (not sounds), i want to start all over with midi mapping them by writing a new preset on the akai mpd24 so there are no chromatic shifts. i tried reinstalling the live pack ut that wouldn't overwrite my settings.

If you do, I wouldn't keep them as nested drum racks when you move them. Change the hits to instrument racks. Actually, don't even bother, I'm almost done converting them all to each be on one 4x4 square. I'll post tonight/tomorrow (I'm at work ..physically anyways).