2008

[M. Bréqs]

We have a very short time to educate ourselves out of the blind-alley thinking demonstrated by the likes of abotha5 and Breqs and the millions of ignorant, xenophobic troglodytes that make up the lumpen bulk of western "civilisation".

Small town bigots like abotha5 will gradually get bred out of the gene pool as aggregate intelligence increases but proactive, imperialist bigots like Breqs present more of a danger.

They don't just weigh the rest of us down with their arrogance and crass stupidity - they actually have ambition and seek to proactively spread their poisoned view of the world through their "altruistic missionary work".

One day Breqs somebody will come to your home from abroad and try to "civilise" you.

Then you'll get it.

...I take all that as a compliment coming from you.

Where do you live popslut? Maybe I can drop by and teach you some civility?



(edit: to be absolutely clear, that's a joke, not a threat)

[popslut]

Where do you live popslut?

Warm and balmy Eastern Spain.

Maybe I can drop by and teach you some civility?

You'd be most welcome any time.

Please try to resist the temptation to educate the locals on their cultural habits though - they're fiercely proud of their traditions round here.

[OvertoneZero]

if to trust the majority is right, then our liberties have been stripped, as the most popular wins over the good of all people.

and might i remind that nazi germany became the majority. was this right?

Good point.. morality is essentially a social construct.

I'm guessing that most of the Nazis thought what they were doing was 'right'.


'The best government is that which governs least.' - Thoreau

[dcease]

yup. i believe the founding fathers believed this also...

[abotha5]

I hear what you are saying and I will check out your links. I want you to think about one thing though. Do you want to fight the terro's in Iraq or in America, because if the troops withdraw they will bring the fight to America. I was involved in fighting terro's for 15 years and currently 35000 of my army mates are doing duty in Iraq. If the fight comes to America what now appears as bad laws will look like Sunday school readings compared to what will be implemented Whether you like it or not the way of life in America changed forever with 911. I also believe Canada will be changed in the future with a similar event.

They are fighting us because we are over there. Not because we are free and have democracy, or our culture, etc. We are over there occupying and manipulating their countries. We'd do the same thing if someone was here telling us how to live our lives and manipulating our government!!

We can't just simply leave, we must be honest with the middle east and tell them the real reasons why we were over there and explain to them it will never happen again. Explain to them its not a crusade and we have nothing against them or their religion. It was about strategic locations and resources. Then further drive home that we are very sorry and it will never happen again. Be human. Be humble.

After that, secure our borders and continue to have a modest national defense. Continue talks with other nations to ensure they have proper security and can help prevent these people from getting on planes to come here and kill us, and/or to protect our embassies.

Honestly I don't fear the 'terrorists'. I do fear China and Russia though. They are backing iran and they have interests in the middle east for oil. If we keep being bullies in the middle east and secure the oil, we may have ww3 over resources as oil supplies run out in the near future.

A better idea to fight terrorism and china is to invest in alternative energies to wean ourselves from sucking at the tit of oil... and stop buying crap we don't need from china and make it here instead.

the problem with making things here at home is because of inflation. our cost of living and wages are so artificially high, that we can't compete on a global market. look at argentina - their stuff is super cheap after their currency collapsed. we will need to do the same thing here. reset our prices to something realistic. we cant keep printing money and inflating values to give the illusion of prosperity.. debt does not = wealth.

just look at the price of gold and the stock market, this scenario is coming at us fast....

i'd like a future where we are motivated by the good of our communities rather than chasing inflated paper dollars that continue to lose their value as we print more and prices increase....... what is the point?

ZSTO

Please help me I am a little confused after reading the above. Was America not attacked First. I kind of remember the Embassy bombings in Africa, the Uss Cole, The 911 attacks. I also remember Osama declaring war on America and not once did one muslim country stand up and condem him. I also remember seeing muslims dance in the street after 911. Was it also not Iraq that attcked Iran, and Kuwait, and refused weapons inspectors access. Did the UN not try for 10 years to get Iraq to comply. Are you saying it was ok for Sadam to do what he did.

You sir just demonstrated aptly my point about liberals because you clearly are one. You hate America. You want her to turn tail and run. You want her defeated. You want her to feel guilty and apologise and be humble. You should run for the Democratic party as a candidate. With you in charge, the Natzi's or the Russians would have ruled the world. You have these liberties today because people before you believed enough in it that they were prepared to die for it.

Thank God they did not have the same defeatest attitude. I dont know what youre smoking but it must be good shit. Take of your rosie coloured glasses and wake up. The world is full of evil people. People hate America in the east because they dont want democracy. They want to continue to treat their citizens like slaves and rule them like Tyrants. They know that if one country in the east adopts democracy the rest will follow. Thats what they fear, nothing else. If America is so crap why are the rest of the world trying to get in.

Lastly, it appears that your Mr Ron Paul is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He appears to be a racist and a biggot. Have a look at the latest news about his writings. Told you he was the wrong horse to back

To Popslut

You have once again proven my point. You are unable to debate any of the issues and therefore resort to personal attacks. It seems that your maturity level is that of a 15 years old. I suggest less time in front of your PC and more time reading. You really need to grow up. Sticks and stones etc etc etc

[Tone Deft]

I abotha. you're the Borat of democrats.

[andydes]

ZSTO

Please help me I am a little confused after reading the above. Was America not attacked First. I kind of remember the Embassy bombings in Africa, the Uss Cole, The 911 attacks. I also remember Osama declaring war on America and not once did one muslim country stand up and condem him. I also remember seeing muslims dance in the street after 911. Was it also not Iraq that attcked Iran, and Kuwait, and refused weapons inspectors access. Did the UN not try for 10 years to get Iraq to comply. Are you saying it was ok for Sadam to do what he did.

You sir just demonstrated aptly my point about liberals because you clearly are one. You hate America. You want her to turn tail and run. You want her defeated. You want her to feel guilty and apologise and be humble. You should run for the Democratic party as a candidate. With you in charge, the Natzi's or the Russians would have ruled the world. You have these liberties today because people before you believed enough in it that they were prepared to die for it.

Thank God they did not have the same defeatest attitude. I dont know what youre smoking but it must be good shit. Take of your rosie coloured glasses and wake up. The world is full of evil people. People hate America in the east because they dont want democracy. They want to continue to treat their citizens like slaves and rule them like Tyrants. They know that if one country in the east adopts democracy the rest will follow. Thats what they fear, nothing else. If America is so crap why are the rest of the world trying to get in.

Lastly, it appears that your Mr Ron Paul is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He appears to be a racist and a biggot. Have a look at the latest news about his writings. Told you he was the wrong horse to back

To Popslut

You have once again proven my point. You are unable to debate any of the issues and therefore resort to personal attacks. It seems that your maturity level is that of a 15 years old. I suggest less time in front of your PC and more time reading. You really need to grow up. Sticks and stones etc etc etc

Funny, I distinctly remember pretty much everyone condemning the 911 attacks. Here's a good one:

League of Arab States:
“The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. “It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,” he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distance in the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.”


OK, here goes:
Iraq was not connected to 911.
There were no weapons of mass destruction (now admitted by Bush).
Sadam was contained and not a military threat to anyone.
The UN discovered no weapons because there were none.
No one ever complained about the justified retaliation to the invasion of Kuwait.
The Iran / Iraq war where America and Britain were 100% behind Iraq? No fucking way can you use that as justification.

Yes America was attacked first, but if you can't see the difference between terrorist attacks by a small group of people with knives on 4 planes, and Hitler rolling across Europe with 50000 tanks, then any debate is completely pointless.

People in the middle east do want democracy. They just want their own democracy, not us forcing our own ideas down their throat. Lebanon was coming along nicely, with Beirut transforming into a modern cosmopolitan city, before an unfortunate over reaction on Israel’s part.

Liberals hate America? Don't give me that crap.

[popslut]

OK, here goes:

Great post but don't expect a coherent reply from Mr Fox News.

[chrysalis33rpm]

^^+1

[heavensdaw]

GOOd thread...

Let's be honest, humanity, from so many points of view, is pretty fucked up..

I was thinking about this the other day ..

When wasn't there wars?

When wasn't there poverty?

When hasn't there been needless suffering?

I personally, don't see a political solution to all the hatred, greed, ignorance and fear that resides over humanity at this point in history..

At this point in history humanity [sadly] needs government because it is basically without.

Without the ability to be in harmony with itself. Without the ability to be truly united.

I really feel that human beings have all the qualities to live in harmony, but we just don't use them... And to be honest I'm not entirely sure why. [though I have my theories]

I don't think it is just a question as to wether the USA wakes up or not. But wether humanity wakes up.. EVERYBODY! or a least a very BIG %age..

The truth is I have more faith in a 2012 Armageddon scenario sorting everything out for a while, than the pathetic circus of political promises, that we are asked to believe and take active part in.

Sheep need shepherds.. Humans..... consciousness

With Love

Hd

[andydes]

People have just hope that there can be a solution.

Rememeber the Berlin wall coming down? (The Hoff played the concert, but that's beside the point).

I was pretty young, but even I picked up on what everyone was feeling, that maybe everything would be alright afterall.

We could really use another moment like that. But we'll need to work damned hard for it.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Yeah, I remember that and the talk about the peace dividend- what America should do with the biliions in surplus money now that we didn't need to fight the Russians. I was 13 I guess, and I remember saying that we should pay down the national debt with that money.

I don't know what happened to the peace dividend, but I suspect that the some peoples' businesses really missed the arms race.

[zstowasser]

Please help me I am a little confused after reading the above. Was America not attacked First. I kind of remember the Embassy bombings in Africa, the Uss Cole, The 911 attacks. I also remember Osama declaring war on America and not once did one muslim country stand up and condem him. I also remember seeing muslims dance in the street after 911. Was it also not Iraq that attcked Iran, and Kuwait, and refused weapons inspectors access. Did the UN not try for 10 years to get Iraq to comply. Are you saying it was ok for Sadam to do what he did.

America is an empire and we've been in the middle east for 50 years. Those attacks are justified. Imagine if china had military bases in Canada and Mexico and had its warships patrolling off the pacific coast. Imagine China overthrowing the governments in Mexico and Canada and putting in leaders that were favorable to Chinas interests and not to the people of the land. What would we, as americans do? We'd rise together and fight the Chinese. This is whats happening in the middle east. They don't want us there. This is why they are fighting us.

Yes the middle east is a mess, but it is not our job to fix it. Let them fix it themselves. Let them workout their civil war on their own. We had an opportunity to fix Iraq but that time has come and gone. We're now doing more harm than good. Do you know the full story of Iraq? How we fired their military? Let them loot and raid the country? So now we have half a million out of work military men with tons of guns, ammo and weapons. The IEDs, etc started happening after we did that. The only thing we protected in Iraq was the oil. We let the country turn into chaos. Check out the film "no end in sight" - it has interviews with the people who were in charge of iraq and knew what was going on, they are so frustrated with what has happened that they have now come forward.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

Furthermore, the legitimacy of 9/11 is highly in doubt. If you believe the official story, you are ignoring the piles of facts, evidence and truth. However, if you do believe the official story, I don't blame you. I bought into the lies just like everyone else did. However through months of research I have come to the conclusion that there are too many unanswered questions and it needs to be reinvestigated. There is overwhelming information out there, if you are seriously interested google 9/11 truth.

Finally, the Iraq war had been planned years before 9/11. This has been documented many times. There was no link between Iraq and 9/11, al-qaeda or osama bin laden. No WMD. These were the reasons to go in there. So since we're there, what is the mission? How do we accomplish this? Stay and fight? They are fighting us because we're there. They don't want our help anymore. We are doing more harm than good. Lets get our brave men and women back home to protect Americas borders.

If these countries are so bad and need help, we shouldn't be the only ones there. Spending the money, going bankrupt and having our fellow americans die over this. It's not worth it.

You sir just demonstrated aptly my point about liberals because you clearly are one. You hate America. You want her to turn tail and run. You want her defeated. You want her to feel guilty and apologise and be humble. You should run for the Democratic party as a candidate. With you in charge, the Natzi's or the Russians would have ruled the world. You have these liberties today because people before you believed enough in it that they were prepared to die for it.

Thank God they did not have the same defeatest attitude. I dont know what youre smoking but it must be good shit. Take of your rosie coloured glasses and wake up. The world is full of evil people. People hate America in the east because they dont want democracy. They want to continue to treat their citizens like slaves and rule them like Tyrants. They know that if one country in the east adopts democracy the rest will follow. Thats what they fear, nothing else. If America is so crap why are the rest of the world trying to get in.

Abotha, I want to let you know that I love you. I always will. If I met you, I would give you a big hug. I know deep down inside you are a good person. You have some frustrations and fears about the world and it is rightly so. But we'll get through this. Don't you worry my friend. We must look together for the truth and rise above this. As humans on this fragile planet in the middle of the empty universe, we can do better than this. We really can.

Nazi's etc have nothing to do with today. Saddam was not Hitler. Very different times, very different war. This accusation is unfair and has nothing to do with my argument. Our liberties are being taken away because of this war on terror. Don't you understand? Please take a moment and watch / read all those links I gave you.

Lastly, it appears that your Mr Ron Paul is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He appears to be a racist and a biggot. Have a look at the latest news about his writings. Told you he was the wrong horse to back

the new republic article is old news. Those words were not written by Ron Paul but by someone working for the organization that published a newsletter in his name. Ron Paul has appologized for it years ago, he wasn't aware of what was going on. He was busy in his medical practice and traveling and giving speeches.

Ron Paul is the farthest thing from a racist. His heros are Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and ghandi.

Take a moment and watch the interview Ron Paul gave Wolf Blitzer. He explains how he believes everyone is an individual and doesn't put people in groups. This is the libertarian philosophy. Also, Ron Paul is fighting for minorities by stopping the war on drugs. Those who have been convicted of a non-violent drug crime would be pardoned under a Ron Paul presidency.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AvzsiESqVss

Abotha, if you truly want peace in the world, as I know you do. Everyone does. You must realize that peace is not created with violence. Peace is created with peace.

Put yourself in their shoes and you'll start to get the picture.

This world needs more compassion and understanding.

heavensdaw - yes I agree, that our looming economic collapse and peak oil are coming together near the prophesied 2011/2012 dates. I look at this as a forest fire. It is destructive, but needed to keep the forest healthy. After the fire, the strong trees will remain standing.

I believe that we must all come in touch with our intuition if we are to survive. Things are going to get really crazy and life is going to move very fast. The ones that stop and think will be too late.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Take a moment and watch the interview Ron Paul gave Wolf Blitzer. He explains how he believes everyone is an individual and doesn't put people in groups. This is the libertarian philosophy. Also, Ron Paul is fighting for minorities by stopping the war on drugs. Those who have been convicted of a non-violent drug crime would be pardoned under a Ron Paul pregnancy.

I hope it was an immaculate conception...the evangelicals are not going to like this.

[zstowasser]

Take a moment and watch the interview Ron Paul gave Wolf Blitzer. He explains how he believes everyone is an individual and doesn't put people in groups. This is the libertarian philosophy. Also, Ron Paul is fighting for minorities by stopping the war on drugs. Those who have been convicted of a non-violent drug crime would be pardoned under a Ron Paul pregnancy.

I hope it was an immaculate conception...the evangelicals are not going to like this.

HEH - you caught that was a typeo.. been arguing with people on other threads about abortion!! I think the issue is divisive and if we truly want to stop abortions, we must prevent unwanted pregnancy. thats where we need to be spending our time and attention. teach kids about sex, make sure they have access to condoms, explain that sex is beautiful but dangerous, teach them the dangers of stds and pregnancy. stop shaming kids for sex and thinking that abstinence is the only way to stop pregnancy. to think that kids can ignore their primal hormonal urges to mate is simply naive.