2008

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:13 am

"we're all good deep down" ...is total denial BS

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:36 am

zstowasser wrote that. i was trying to be optimystic. i'll go back into pessimist mode. you are right. we are fucked. oh, wait... i've been saying that the whole time. but hey, i like the way the guy thinks. ain't nothin wrong with a little positivity

smile. it'll be alright. you are allowed to enjoy life. everyone should smile once in their life from doing something nice for someone. that IS good. and i believe everyone is capable of that. we all make mistakes. but we so often forget to forgive. give and take. i'm not asking for "the garden of eden", but rather enough for everyone. everyone deserves a chance to try. or not. only the "special" people deserve opportunity, right? that's some nazi soundin shit to me. and that's what our current government seems to believe. so i will disagree. i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

oh, when will rage be censored? that propaganda is warping my brain. the same cd for fifteen years. it's totally brainwashed me. do you have a pill to make me "normal"?

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:55 am

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:04 am

zstowasser wrote: I don't think violence fixes anything.

Wrong. Violence does fix things, though admittedly only in limited circumstances. Decisive, overwhelming and annihilating violence fixes things quite handily. Japan and Germany were pacified when their society, infrastructure, and instutions were all destroyed completely, with no hope whatsoever of continuing to fight. France, after Napoleon was crushed the second time around, decided to play nice with Europe. LIMITED violence, or violence ended prematurely by externally imposed peace (which includes most of the other 20th century wars) only prolongs and delays conflict, which will fester over time.

zstowasser wrote:
Please, for the love of [insert god here], can you try to put yourself in their shoes? Please, I beg of you. Just try. It won't be that hard, I promise. But you might need to change your mind. I know it sounds scary. Just give it a shot. Please.

Despite your condescending, sanctimonious exhortation, I'll actually humour you and answer your question. I have "been in more people's shoes" than you expect amigo; I have travelled quite widely and seen more of the planet and met more of its inhabitants than probably 99.9% of North Americans; and not just as a member of the military.

zstowasser wrote:
After you do that, answer me this. I believe deep down that we are all good people. Do you? Or do you think that we are all sinners / evil / bad people and nothing can ever be done about it, so we must control everything. And if that is the case, how can you "justify" telling other people how to live, especially through force, if we are all bad people? Or is it that "some people" are bad, and "we in the west" happen to be the good ones, so it is our duty to protect them from themselves?

You're offering a false Trilemma (is there such a word?). I won't let you pigeonhole my opinion into one of your three easily digestible categories.

Western Civilization, as I stated elsewhere, is the greatest achievement of humanity. We doubled the human lifespan through medicine, we created modern democracy, we were the first to abolish slavery, we were the first to embrace rationality and secularism, we were the first to emancipate women, and the first to achieve the concept of racial equality. We have pushed the boundaries of science and technology, being the first to achieve flight, break into space, and establish mass communication. ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD ABOUT THE 21st CENTURY COMES FROM THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.

Meanwhile, you have 1 billion victims. They're victims of a cult. They were indoctrinated at birth, into a cult that despite illusions of superiority, for the last 800 years has accomplished nothing of a scale similar to what the West has done. That has created resentment and jealousy. Now, before I go on, let me be clear; I don't hate muslims at all. I hate the ideology that has crushed their potential and relegated them to a tertiary role in the world.

Islam's greatest accomplishments are all over 800 years ago, and since then all they have been able to accomplish is conquest. Samuel Huntington summed it up nicely in the Clash of Civilizations. Check it out, it's an informative read, and quite prescient. In it, he shows that Islam has been hostile to it's neighbours for all its existance.

Why is Islam so hostile to neighbours? Doctrinally, they're compelled to; their founder was a conquerer. Also, I remember reading that the economy of a pure Quaranic islamic state is unsustainable. Strict Islam dictates that all muslims must pay zakat (tax) equal to 2.5% of their wealth annually. In fact, in strict sharia, the state didn't even get to control how the Zakat was given; it could be given directly to poorer muslims, or to finance mosques or works of art, rather than operating the mechanisms of a state. Obviously, it is impossible to sustain a state on such a pittance; as such, muslim states for the last 1200 years have depended on either war booty or jizya from their dhimmi population for sustainment. Thus, islam was forced to become the world's largest extortion racket. As dhimmi found it more profitable (and less dangerous) to convert, muslim states were forced to constantly expand, to collect more war booty and to conquer more dhimmis.

While Western Civilization (characterized in the middle ages primarily by Christianity) had its fair share of intolerance and war, our society matured; That was the Reformation and the Age of Reason. Islam needs a reformation desperately. This world is too small to coexist with one billion people trapped in a 7th century mindset. Islam needs to go through the same process that Christianity did.

That said, there are some reformers in islam. Tarek Fatah, Ishrad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Wafa Sultan amongst them. However, they are a minority, and they live under threat of death. Further, they all (with the exception of Mr. Fatah) believe that the quran should not be taken literally. Plus, the fact that these people are so newsworthy and famous is in itself explicit evidence that muslims of their outlook are rare - though hopefully with greater Western influence, muslims like them will become more common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Fatah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Which muslim states are the most stable today? Dubai, Kuwait, and Turkey come to mind. What do they have in common? Ahhhh, they've accepted elements of Western Civilization! Why are muslims in Western nations better off both economically and interms of personal liberty than their brethren in muslim socieities? Because of the positive, secularist influence of Western Civilization perhaps? It seems that it's self evident why there's such a strong desire to emigrate to Western Europe and North America; with very few exceptions, most muslims who emigrate want to enjoy the benefits of western society (stability, economic opportunity, religious freedom, political empowerment, etc).

Anyways, to get back on subject, yes, we in the West must not necessarily;

zstowasser wrote: ...protect them from themselves?

We in the west must help the reformers in Islam achieve greater influence. The survival of humanity depends on it. That's why the West needs to maintain a presence throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East.

zstowasser · Post by **zstowasser** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:53 pm

alright guys this was fun.

hope we learned something together.

everyone has the possibility to be good. yes, children are our future.

if you don't believe me, talk to a psychologist who knows their stuff...

m. breqs - the west isn't the only good. there are elements of the east that are amazing as well - the philosophies of buddhism come to mind. there are some crazy people out there and society isn't ready for full world peace but we are moving in that direction. war might have been ok pre 20th century to settle differences. but we're moving forward here, lets give diplomacy a try, eh?

good luck trying to control people. have a military defense to protect us, but start with protecting our borders. let people be, talk with them, educate them, but don't force anyone to do anything, especially by violence. violence leads to resentment, this is this pesky festering that you are talking about. I don't think you've put yourself in their shoes. You think you are above the enemy. Your ego is getting in the way.

everything is going to work itself out anyways, instead enjoy life. eat good food. make love to your mate. enjoy nature. if you try to control people or control things around you, you are only going to cause and feel suffering, this is called grasping.

i'll be gone for a few days canvassing for ron paul to get the word out about a foreign policy of peace and sound money.

see ya

z

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:21 pm

slavery abolished huh?what do you call a kid locked up for a non violent drug offense? 15 years of slavery for some pot? yeah, that's modern.
china... philipines, mexican day laborers... i'm sure they have all come to love the same benifits that i enjoy as an american.

racial equality huh? where? that's a joke. if i had a dollar for everytime i've heard the word nigger come out of some wasp's mouth...

sexual equality? a woman doing the same job as a man can expect less pay. real equal...

and the only thing doubling with medicine right now is boardroom pockets. doctors patch. not fix. you don't come back if you are healed. if a doctor accepts a kick back from a major pharmacutical corporation, how can you assume he/she is really looking after our best intrests?

i don't disagree that western civilization is the best in the world... lord knows how grateful i am that i live where i do, and not some third world toilet bowl. i do however disagree with current policy to fix the world, when there are major problems at home. it just seems like we are half-assin it right now.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:36 pm

zstowasser wrote: everyone has the possibility to be good. yes, children are our future.

if you don't believe me, talk to a psychologist who knows their stuff...

That's a bit better than "we're all good" , which is totally false and easily disproved.
If you don't believe me, talk to a criminal psychologist who knows their stuff...

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:42 pm

so we can all get along, now? yay! end thread?

heavensdaw · Post by **heavensdaw** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:08 pm

forge wrote:
heavensdaw wrote:
zstowasser wrote: Humans are evolving. Consciousness is evolving. One day there will be peace.
Are humans really evolving?

I think that depends on your point of view.

As for consciousness.. To be conscious now is surly the same as being conscious yesterday, tomorrow or six thousand years ago... no?

Peace exists today.. for those who feel it..

Hd
well, it's good that people still want to improve things, but of course we are evolving - the world is a completely different place to even 30 years ago

consciousness is bound to be different as we learn more about ourselves and the world

For me, the word 'changing', I think would be a slightly more accurate description.

I think with all the so called improvements that people promote there is also a complete other side of the coin..
Ie. More houses ... More homelessness. More education ... More ignorance.
More medication ... More sickness and disease. More wealth ... More poverty. More choices ... More confusion.

This is what I perceive. Maybe it's a numbers game. Maybe it's a law of this dual plane of existence.. dunno

Consciousness is consciousness.. We can be conscious of different things..

Just reading through this thread indicates how different our perspectives can be.

Can greed and a strong social consciousness coexist? Most 'improvements' as far as I can see, like a new medicine, for example, are researched, funded, produced and finally delivered to the people by huge multi national companies at unaffordable prices.

I'm not saying that I think that it's wrong to try to improve things, It just seems crazy [to me at least] that if we are really evolving then why is there so many problems in this world? Why are so many suffering?

Computers for instance.. Are they an evolution an improvement? Nowadays people are spending a massive amount of their lives in-front of them [me included!] It has been said that the civilizations of yesteryear had technologies way more advanced than we have today.. It could be argued that we have misplaced many of our innate abilities in pursuit of all the modern day achievements that we have made.

It could be said that everyone is conscious... But of what?

I'm not trying to be contrary in any way.. Just the way I see it, that's all.

With love

Hd

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:15 pm

nice post hd

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:31 pm

dcease wrote:slavery abolished huh?what do you call a kid locked up for a non violent drug offense? 15 years of slavery for some pot? yeah, that's modern.
china... philipines, mexican day laborers... i'm sure they have all come to love the same benifits that i enjoy as an american.

racial equality huh? where? that's a joke. if i had a dollar for everytime i've heard the word nigger come out of some wasp's mouth...

sexual equality? a woman doing the same job as a man can expect less pay. real equal...

and the only thing doubling with medicine right now is boardroom pockets. doctors patch. not fix. you don't come back if you are healed. if a doctor accepts a kick back from a major pharmacutical corporation, how can you assume he/she is really looking after our best intrests?

i don't disagree that western civilization is the best in the world... lord knows how grateful i am that i live where i do, and not some third world toilet bowl. i do however disagree with current policy to fix the world, when there are major problems at home. it just seems like we are half-assin it right now.

OK, I think we can agree on that last bit. I think though that we have set the bar very high for ourselves; women still earn less than men, but the general direction of society is that we are conscious of that and striving to change it. We are conscious of former instutionalized racism, and now only dealing with the remnants of it. Compare this with societies that rather than strive to eliminate these injustices, fully entrench and embrace them.

I just find that waaaaaayyyy too many people on the left side of the ideological spectrum slag on the West and the United States, without being conscious of the good that we've brought to the world. In my opinion, it far outweighs the bad. I don't want to sound cornball, but I appreciate western society so much that I am prepared to die and kill in its defence. Nothing fills me with more horror than imagining a world where a society that has not had an 'age of reason' achieves global dominance on a scale that we enjoyed for the last 300 years. What will the Chinese do if (when) they become the most dominant military, economic and cultural force on the planet? Islam? Will they be as kind to us as we are to them? I fucking doubt it.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:03 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:Islam? Will they be as kind to us as we are to them?

lol - I fucking hope not

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:57 am

b0unce wrote:
M. Bréqs wrote:Islam? Will they be as kind to us as we are to them?
lol - I fucking hope not

tou-motherfuckin-ché!

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:51 pm

broken records should be trashed.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:16 pm

b0unce wrote:
M. Bréqs wrote:Islam? Will they be as kind to us as we are to them?
lol - I fucking hope not

the worsted post since the existing of the internet.
this is what i call manipulation.

2008

Will the USA wake up before it's too late?

Re: it's on the books..

Re: it's on the books..