Recording Guitar in Ableton

[Tone Deft]

Timur - here's a nice article that might help you figure out the RME 470k problem you brought up.
http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/LoadingandCables.htm
notice that the guy sounds a lot like what you're saying.

from my end, google on 'LC passive lowpass filter'. C being capacitors, L being inductors. Capacitance is prominant in your guitar cable, inductors are prominant in the guitar pickups. there's also resistance in the guitar cable. together their effects are impedance. their values effect how low the low pass filter is set, which can effect tone.

[dcease]

hey, td! quick question... how can YOU tell if tone has been effected?

[Tone Deft]

hey, td! quick question... how can YOU tell if tone has been effected?

if it sounds different than it did before?

[dcease]

yeah, you need some coffee. did you forget your name? oh, nevermind <joke flies high into atmosphere>

[Tone Deft]

yeah, you need some coffee. did you forget your name? oh, nevermind <joke flies high into atmosphere>

not too deft at the moment...

[dcease]

nice sig...

[Timur]

Timur - here's a nice article that might help you figure out the RME 470k problem you brought up.
http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/LoadingandCables.htm
notice that the guy sounds a lot like what you're saying.

from my end, google on 'LC passive lowpass filter'. C being capacitors, L being inductors. Capacitance is prominant in your guitar cable, inductors are prominant in the guitar pickups. there's also resistance in the guitar cable. together their effects are impedance. their values effect how low the low pass filter is set, which can effect tone.

Thanks for the link, I will have a look at it. The way you describe the physical/electronics side seems to be along the lines of how I understood that stuff. In practice the main important thing for me is that guitars seem to come with a comparatively high output impedance and in order to have proper impedance-bridging (signal is all voltage and prferably no current) and little "lowpass filer" effects you need a considerably higher input impedance. As far as I remember the general formula for proper impedance bridging is input-impedance should be about 10 times higher than output impedance (same for mic pres where output impedance is usually rated between 100 to 200 ohms). There is alot of voodoo flying around the net and I should emphasize that Wikipedia is not my only source of information for these kind of things.

Apart from all the theoretical mambojambo I did buy me a good 3m guitar cable for recording lately and it audibly helps to get a better tone from my 70this Pearl LP Custom which tone-wise is a bit too much on the dark side (that thing weights 10 lbs, no wonder I felt victim to a herniated/slipped disc this year ).

Thanks for the flowers in your later post, btw. I get kind of bombarded with stfu posts lately, so it's nice to read some warm words.

[Tone Deft]

we're still in a disconnect... keep it coming though, I can see some method to your madness, it's practical advice you've picked up, so it seems. I wish there was a good guitar tech who could chime in.

I'll try to find a picture that shows how to draw the guitar to amp connection in terms of inductors, caps and resistors. from there I can show you how that creates a low pass filter.

I've always been more of an acoustic player really, or more lately it's been electric and my Pod XT, plug in and play. in practice I never tried this stuff on my own gear.


one thing, you mention 'bridging', I'm not familiar with that term. in terms of getting the most out of a signal from point a to point b, the phrase you want to look for is 'impedence matching', it's like getting 8 Ohm speakers to match the 8 ohm output on your receiver. but that's more for driven lines. that's the crazy thing about electronics, there's about 8 different ways to think of things.

[dj superflat]

i can't believe you all are still discussing this. isn't the short answer get a DI box or use a pre with an instrument in? or use the GR controller? or get one of those zvex pedals that kicks the guitar level up just right? or use the mesa V tube pedal? or whatever?

or has this now become a technical discussion?

[Tone Deft]

i can't believe you all are still discussing this. isn't the short answer get a DI box or use a pre with an instrument in? or use the GR controller? or get one of those zvex pedals that kicks the guitar level up just right? or use the mesa V tube pedal? or whatever?

or has this now become a technical discussion?

yeah, that's the advice.

Timur's introduced into the discussion that different DI boxes have different input impedances, also changing his guitar lead had an effect on his sound. now we're discussing why this happens and there's a total disconnect on it.

if I could just draw on paper what I mean it would be a lot easier.

[leedsquietman]

All interesting stuff.

However, the best sound will always be to plug your guitar into an amp and Mic the sound. Stuff like Guitar Rig 3 sounds pretty good these days and in a dense mix, DIing can sound less pitiful and be useable, but nothing beats the sound of my guitar run through a nice amp (and with a really high end pedal such as a Vox Tonelab) which I mic up with an SM57.

Of course, due to noise considerations, or sometimes to change up the sounds for variety, I do DI some guitar recordings but in an ideal world, I'd mic up an amp every time. Amp simulators have come a long way but don't catch that last 10% of the nice tone.

[Tone Deft]

All interesting stuff.

However, the best sound will always be to plug your guitar into an amp and Mic the sound. Stuff like Guitar Rig 3 sounds pretty good these days and in a dense mix, DIing can sound less pitiful and be useable, but nothing beats the sound of my guitar run through a nice amp (and with a really high end pedal such as a Vox Tonelab) which I mic up with an SM57.

Of course, due to noise considerations, or sometimes to change up the sounds for variety, I do DI some guitar recordings but in an ideal world, I'd mic up an amp every time. Amp simulators have come a long way but don't catch that last 10% of the nice tone.

sure. being a city dweller I prefer to spend my money on DI gear, the neighbors prefer it.

but we're talking about the effects of guitar leads and the ways various DI boxes are made. Timur seems to think that part's important and he got a cleaner tone from a 3m guitar lead. then we got into opposite ways of explaining why, there's a disconnect.

I don't take electric guitars THAT seriously to apply this stuff but got sucked into talking theory, or rather what in the heck Timur was talking about. I think he picked up some good advice along the way but I don't really follow his explanation of it.

[Timur]

but we're talking about the effects of guitar leads and the ways various DI boxes are made. Timur seems to think that part's important and he got a cleaner tone from a 3m guitar lead. then we got into opposite ways of explaining why, there's a disconnect.

I don't take electric guitars THAT seriously to apply this stuff but got sucked into talking theory, or rather what in the heck Timur was talking about. I think he picked up some good advice along the way but I don't really follow his explanation of it.

Really, I only wanted to emphasize that plugging a guitar into a line-in is not such a good idea. The rest of the discussion came up because of the feedback and because it's interesting and valuable to know about these things when you're learning about music-production.

Plugging low impedance outputs into high impedance inputs aka impedance bridging is common practice in audio, not because of filtering effects but in order to maintain voltages/signal strength. This is in contrast to impedance matching where you want to have maximum current/energy. But as far as I understood current doesn't matter with audio-signals, only voltage matters, you don't even want to have current as long you don't have to drive speakers with it. So if you plug a high impedance guitar output (which are common) into a medium/low impedance line-input you will lose signal strength, because voltage levels will drop at the input.

By itself that has nothing to do with the lowpass filtering thing on guitars, but with guitars plugged into capacitative cables (and whatever else there is that can act like a capacitor in the electric circuit of a guitar) this can happen. My PM comment on the 3m cable was less about the length (anything upto 10m and sometimes should work fine with many guitars), but more on the quality of the cable. My new 3m low-capacity guitar-cable audibly enhances the sound of a "hot" and dark-sounding neck humbucker on my old 70' Pearl LP Customs compared to my old cheapo cables. That's less about cable-vodoo but more about quality vs. cheap crap. And since you don't need any length of cable when plugging directly into your computer it's not a bad idea to use a shorter cable for lower capacity and thus saving any hassle with possible lowpass-filtering that might occur.

Whatever, normally if you plug an instrument/mic into any input you want to make sure that the input impedance does not match the output impedance, but is at least five to ten times higher. Else you may need more pre-amplification, including the higher noise-level that comes with that (plus the noise from the current running through resistant cables and electronics I guess).

By the way, most mic-preamps come with an impedance of around 2 kOhm and expect mics with an output impedance of around 100 to 200 Ohm. Line-level inputs come with an input impedance between 10 to 80 kOhm (i.e. Fireface uses 10 kOhm, the FX-Return of my Attax Guitar-Amp uses 47 kOhm).

[dj superflat]

good cables are a must.

i also generally run through various zvex pedals which, even when off, effectively boost the signal to make up for old magnets and such. i forget the technical explanation, but believe it (because of how good guitars sound through these things).

http://zvex.com/super.html

or i use the instrument input on a millenia STT1, gorgeous sound with any sort of guitar.

or the line out on the mesa V tube amp pedal, pretty nice tone, but doesn't touch the millenia.

or an sm57 micing the amp, though i don't do so much these days cause i hate the volume you need to get the tone you'd like.

and i must say that, while GR isn't really up to playing live yet (compared to a great amp at hi volume), i think you can get some great "studio" sounds with it.

[Tone Deft]

Really, I only wanted to emphasize that plugging a guitar into a line-in is not such a good idea. The rest of the discussion came up because of the feedback and because it's interesting and valuable to know about these things when you're learning about music-production.

yes, guitars need hi inputs, and yes I'm seeing if there's something i can learn.

Plugging low impedance outputs into high impedance inputs aka impedance bridging is common practice in audio, not because of filtering effects but in order to maintain voltages/signal strength.

can you point me a link to this bridging concept. again, it can be a language barrier (still, props that you're writing this in your non-native tongue, so many of you Euro-dude impress me with that.)

This is in contrast to impedance matching where you want to have maximum current/energy. But as far as I understood current doesn't matter with audio-signals, only voltage matters, you don't even want to have current as long you don't have to drive speakers with it. So if you plug a high impedance guitar output (which are common) into a medium/low impedance line-input you will lose signal strength, because voltage levels will drop at the input.

this is where I feel your electronics knowledge falls apart. you can't really disconnect current and voltage, not in working electronics. voltage without current is static electricity, or a battery just sitting on the ground. current without voltage is impossible because as the current flows it defines a voltage, it goes from higher to lower potential. then you introduce a medium impedance input, which is getting silly.

By itself that has nothing to do with the lowpass filtering thing on guitars, but with guitars plugged into capacitative cables (and whatever else there is that can act like a capacitor in the electric circuit of a guitar) this can happen.

Timur, this frustrates me, you're saying you don't know what a capacitor is in a guitar yet you're using it in your posts. impedance DOES play a role in the low pass filter formed in the circuit, this includes any resistances, capacitance and inductance.

My PM comment on the 3m cable was less about the length (anything upto 10m and sometimes should work fine with many guitars), but more on the quality of the cable. My new 3m low-capacity guitar-cable audibly enhances the sound of a "hot" and dark-sounding neck humbucker on my old 70' Pearl LP Customs compared to my old cheapo cables. That's less about cable-vodoo but more about quality vs. cheap crap. And since you don't need any length of cable when plugging directly into your computer it's not a bad idea to use a shorter cable for lower capacity and thus saving any hassle with possible lowpass-filtering that might occur.

dunno, I've never compared cables, I need a new lead, when I get it, I'll compare. personally, I think this is snake oil BS, but I trust you enough to give it a try or not blow it off.

Whatever, normally if you plug an instrument/mic into any input you want to make sure that the input impedance does not match the output impedance, but is at least five to ten times higher. Else you may need more pre-amplification, including the higher noise-level that comes with that (plus the noise from the current running through resistant cables and electronics I guess).

where are you getting this?

By the way, most mic-preamps come with an impedance of around 2 kOhm and expect mics with an output impedance of around 100 to 200 Ohm. Line-level inputs come with an input impedance between 10 to 80 kOhm (i.e. Fireface uses 10 kOhm, the FX-Return of my Attax Guitar-Amp uses 47 kOhm).

see, shit like these and I take you've been reading up and have something to say, stuff I can learn.


check this out, it talks about bridging and the '10 times' rule you mentioned
http://www.tape.com/resource/impedance.html

I'm watching NFL (American football playoffs) game though, can't read too much.