when arranging..

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:12 am

A question that strikes me:

When you use live for production (composing & arranging here) do you first create all the clips from your head in session view (i mean everything. from drum loops to other midi editing and audio clips), and then record that to arrangement view for then to take care of 'details' such as dropouts and dropins and adding sound effects/snares etc)?

Or do you do like i have done so far, just start up in arrangement view and
create track from one end to another..? Sometimes i feels it a bit annoying if i'd like to do, lets say the main part first and then create the intro and outtro's..

or do you follow a third route, or do you mix all of the above depending on what the job is / what genre / what ideas you got?

Thanks

edit: forgot. should i put a brickwall limiter or something on the main track while composing/arranging not to destroy my ears? In the past i put a pumpin' compressor on and did not leave that till the mixing state but that was a stupid thing, and currently i work with 0 effects or anything there while i arrange and compose, and leave that for mixing/mastering stages. Surely i do use compressors in the tracks (but only when getting near mixing/sound selection states)

substance_g · Post by **substance_g** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:17 am

The first one, but without the snares

This is the great advantage of Live, I think.

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:18 am

I do as per your first method.

Clip up in session view and start setting some scenes. the nice thing about that is you can drop clips in and out and then select and insert the scene as a new scene when you like what you're hearing so you hear the build ups and the like.

Then record an arrangement, then go in and edit your drums and your automation etc.

creature · Post by **creature** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:22 am

I just go to the arrangement view and create the track from start to finish. In fact I have never used the session view except as a mixer. Just the way I like to work

Steve

sxezskoz · Post by **sxezskoz** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:38 am

i also go by method A. having used flstudio in a similar method for years, creating whatever i felt like making in different step patterns first and THEN dealing with the arrangement, it came natural (id say beyond natural, beyond instinctual, beyond!) to use session view to get my tracks rolling.

usually ill make a main scene and then a few variations and then copy them all to the arrangement once i have 70% of my pieces together.

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:40 am

Okay so i wasn't exactly doing the 'wrong' thing hehe

The reason i think i should try the session view is, that sometimes i feel a relatively simple track which sounds great in head takes too much time to get down on 'paper'. If i could just smack it in and there it sits, then try to create a drum rythm and see if that sounds great.

You know, more impulsive creation and THEN taking time to arrange it, instead of having to spend your quality inspired time and loose inspiration again while spending time to lay out smaller things and such.

steve, just noticed while i wrote this post i let the player at your haunted house records play

Which leads me to think again, its depending on the style you're writing. A track like Helter Skelter sounds like it requires lots of fine tuning and fine arranging, tons of sound effects its built up around and such.

Well, guess i should read the manual section on the session view again, then

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:41 am

sxezskoz wrote:i also go by method A. having used flstudio in a similar method for years, creating whatever i felt like making in different step patterns first and THEN dealing with the arrangement, it came natural (id say beyond natural, beyond instinctual, beyond!) to use session view to get my tracks rolling.

usually ill make a main scene and then a few variations and then copy them all to the arrangement once i have 70% of my pieces together.

So basically you align the scenes like you want them to come in a row, and then record them to arrangement view (you did say copy. do you copy them there? or did you mean record)?

Just the other day i made some pretty rough drum loops and a nice bassline, but then when making it in arrangement view my head got clogged up. I suppose what i'll do now is to put the loops and synth settings out in the browser as clips, and then remove arrangement and start with a fresh session.

sxezskoz · Post by **sxezskoz** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:06 am

thefool wrote:The reason i think i should try the session view is, that sometimes i feel a relatively simple track which sounds great in head takes too much time to get down on 'paper'. If i could just smack it in and there it sits, then try to create a drum rythm and see if that sounds great.

You know, more impulsive creation and THEN taking time to arrange it, instead of having to spend your quality inspired time and loose inspiration again while spending time to lay out smaller things and such.

yeah, just spit it all out in session view. if you spit something out and then make a variation, say you decided you want some slightly offbeat hats instead of right on the money, option (or alt) drag your clip to duplicate it and THEN change it, now you have choices as well as evolution. i see the session view, and the step patterns in flstudio, as a big sketch pad. i treat the arrangement view like the canvas.

So basically you align the scenes like you want them to come in a row, and then record them to arrangement view (you did say copy. do you copy them there? or did you mean record)?

yeah horizontally, the top row is the main part. then under each clip (in scene 2, 3, so on and so forth) i drop the next variation i have made. so maybe the bassline will have 3 forms but the drums will have 6. what i do from here is i select all the clips and option drag them over to the arrangement view to duplicate them there. now i have my originals stored in session view and clones in the arrangement view that i can then alter to fit whatever arrangement i come up with next.

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:08 am

Ok thanks for the ideas

I also just read the part in the guide about session view (thx to ableton for putting the pdf so i can read it at work hehe)

So seems like i took the wrong approach first. But then, i spent the last 5 months learning the arrangement view quite good anyway hehe

heavensdaw · Post by **heavensdaw** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:05 pm

Hi.. For me I go with the first method as well.. Session view can be really open and you can jam out your ideas in many different ways.... Don't forget clip recording, to put your ideas down directly into session view..

I get 80% of the parts together in session view and tweak it all in arrangement.. (edits, fx, etc) generally aiding flow,dynamics..

However, I think that one of the most coolest things in Live, is that you can do 'your thing', your way..

Regarding he brick wall limiter on the master during the composing/arranging process, personally I try to get it all sounding pretty damn close without using anything..
I'm no expert here, but I find it best to work on the levels as I go.

Hd

sxezskoz · Post by **sxezskoz** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:12 pm

I have just started getting into the habit of mixing thru an Izotope Ozone3 on the master track. I tweak levels and settings as i go and frequently check the dry sound by bypassing it. In fact I just modified the default template to include it on the master track everytime.

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:13 pm

A big +43 from me for what these guys are saying.

Although I tend to record an arrangement into arrange view and then tinker from there.

regarding your limiiter again +1001 as above, leave it until you're happy with your mixdown anyway, if you need to boost overall volume after that then some light limiting is the way to go.

musicmachine · Post by **musicmachine** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:16 pm

thefool wrote:Ok thanks for the ideas
I also just read the part in the guide about session view (thx to ableton for putting the pdf so i can read it at work hehe)

So seems like i took the wrong approach first. But then, i spent the last 5 months learning the arrangement view quite good anyway hehe

You know you can drag clips from arrangement to session view and vice versa?One of the best things about live for me

jez3122 · Post by **jez3122** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:19 pm

The 1st method for me too....

IMO your missing the Main advantage of Live if you don't...

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm

musicmachine wrote: You know you can drag clips from arrangement to session view and vice versa?One of the best things about live for me

Yeah but then i still have to go around stuffing stuff up. Maybe it would just be better to beat up your focus to 100% and just do the track live in one take launching clips

I'll have to play around with it.

Regarding he brick wall limiter on the master during the composing/arranging process, personally I try to get it all sounding pretty damn close without using anything..
I'm no expert here, but I find it best to work on the levels as I go.

I think the normal approach is to have nothing on the master. It was just to protect my ears. Sometimes if you work on low-volume passages and you accidentally do something it can blow up damn loud

I have just started getting into the habit of mixing thru an Izotope Ozone3 on the master track

Oh but i talk about arranging/composing, not at the mixing place. Though i suspect many to first set up volumes and then add effects.

regarding your limiiter again +1001 as above, leave it until you're happy with your mixdown anyway, if you need to boost overall volume after that then some light limiting is the way to go.

Yeah thats how i suspected it to be, but again, mostly talking about ear protection hehe

Of course i could just stop turning that volume knop around..

IMO your missing the Main advantage of Live if you don't...

I have been able to put out some good stuff (which i let a closed group of people comment for now) with arrangement view, but i seem to like to just do a little loop. I have a hard time finishing whole songs, so i think the session view might be my saviour

edit: forgot a question i think; did you record into arrangement or drag them and then arrange the clips you drag? I am not home right now, but i suppose if you can drag a whole scene or something like that, it might be easier than i think to drag.