Logic, or save up for waves?

[jesso]

Ello.
Just wanted to get the opinions of the great and the good here on my favorite forum.
Im using live 7 for everything, and im pretty happy. I mostly use the arrange view, except for gigs when I use session view. I write electonic music with lots of real instruments thrown in for variety.
What I feel live is lacking is a really good set of reverbs and compressors.
I used to have waves before I went mac, and have recently been using the soundtoys demo stuff, which is super super super nice, and really works well for me.
The only thing is, its really unstable, so im not gunna buy it right now, or at least for a while.
The demo crashes all the time and is almost unusable, despite sounding golden... especially echoboy... I could use that on just about anything! It crashes, and the support dude says theyre looking into it, but I dont believe him. Plus Id need an Ilok.
The basic waves bundle that I want is almost 1000. Thats a lot of greenery. I know it would be worth it, but its a bit too rich for my blood at the moment (baby on the way!)
This leaves me thinking, should I just get logic? Are the plugins alone worth the entry fee? (I already have all the apple loops.... but if i didnt it would be a nobrainer) Would the plugins in the logic envirnoment be an able substitute for the waves package? I like ableton, and will always use it, but ive been very curious about logic now for a while... and seeings that I always use the arrange view anyway... it cant be that different can it?
Shame you cant use the logic plugs in live really. That would be a deal breaker.
Sorry for this rant, I ate too many jellybeans after dinner.
Thank you for reading, its probly not that interesting really to anyone.

[liveISlife]

This is a good question man. I'm interested in what people that have experience with these 2 formats have to say. O man I know what your saying about the sound toys plug ins. They are so good yet so unstable. I noticed they mostly only crash when they are turned on or off. I can get away with using them I just make sure before I turn them on or off or play my arrangement I save my set real quick. I really hope they fix the bugs in that soon. LOL about u eating the jelly beans and being hyped How many did u eat?!?!

[Tarekith]

Logic is a LOT different that Live actually, even in Arrange view. In terms of plug ins, I actually think Logic and Waves are about on par, I don't think Waves has done anything really innovative in a long time personally, and they certainly haven't upgraded any o their agin algorithms. Not that they sound bad, not saying that, just that there's loads of other options out there from newer companies like Sonalksis, URS, etc that easily meet or beat waves quality. IMVHO, others will differ.

In terms of reverb, yes Space Designer in Logic 8 is MUCH better than Ableton's reverb, maybe a tie with waves top convolution reverb. In terms of compression, I actually think that Live 7's new compressor is just as good as anything in Logic, so I don't think you'd gain much there.

In terms of money, I think it's kinda lame to spend $1000 for Waves plug ins, when you can get Logic studio for half that price and it comes with A TON of other cool things. The synths in Logic alone are worth twice that much IMO. Downside is that of course you can only use them in Logic, and as mentioned, it's VERY different from Live. MIDI is a lot better, but the way Logic handles audio files is like night and day, and if you can't get used to it, it won't do you much good.

[jesso]

It is indeed a shame that you cant access the logic effects in live... cos live will always be good for a lot of stuff, and I do like a lot of the live effects, you can go pretty crazy with em. But you wont get "that" vocal or bass sound... or at least I cant anyway. Putting vocals through echoboy is a real treat. Things sound fantastic... especialy the tape delays and slap echo type retro reverbs.
A question for you liveISlife.... Do you own soundtoys, or are you just using the demo? Personaly, I have just been flattening the audio once I get a sound I like, so I dont have to keep the plug in open. Although a lot of the time you get a crash after feezing a soundtoys track.
I know one thing for sure, is that the soundtoys stuff will work in Logic!
Thanks Tarekith, youve made me decide that Id rather get logic than fork out for waves... especially if the synths etc are really good, its great value for £.
Oh, I didnt really eat too many jellybeans, its just that I had just arrived home from playing a wedding fair with my wedding band, and had only eaten half a dodgy sandwich all day, so I was running on nothing but exhausiton and adrenaline, and felt like id eaten too many jellybeans. Maybe I should try eating a load of them tomorow. Just to see what its like.

[aqua_tek]

I vote for logic too. Like Tarekith said, a lot more cost-effective than Waves, and sounds pretty much up to par.

you could always rewire live through it and that way you have access to both programs' plugins and functionalities

[brownbrown]

get logic instead of waves. for $500, i think that's the best money you can spend.

[liveISlife]

Jesso, i own the sound toys native bundle. I'm not really a big fan of flatting because i like to automate and go back and tweak Yeah Logic sounds pretty good right now. It has been on my mind for a while and all I hear is good things about it. I was messing with garageband the other day and I really like it so I can only imagine how epic Logic is Let us know how your jelly bean expeditions go Jesso!

[morerecords]

writing in logic is a joke
mixing in ableton is a joke

The best workflow I have ever arrived at is to write in Live an utterly amzing approach to composition, then mix it in a pro DAW, logic or pro tools. Pro ttols LE does not offer PDC, so Logic is prob the way to go.
but... Most people can agree Cubase's Nuendo is the best SOUNDING, so I would have to suggest writing in Live, mixing in Cubase (which implemented the nuendo sound engine in it's most recent release)

[jesso]

I hear you. I reeeeeaaaly like garageband. Its lovely. So logic MUST be amazing.
Are you not a bit annoyed with the soundtoys dudes that they dont have their software working with Ableton? Its still quite expensive isnt it? A few hundred or something.
Re wire... I tried that with ableton and garageband, cos I liked some of the synths that you get with the jampacks, but had very little success. I couldnt see the point really, I think id prefer to bounce down a load of stems from programe A and then play with em in programe B.... but then im a bit of a techno philistine.
I was probly doing it wrong. So, let me get it straight... youd have your main project running in Logic, but maybe have a an impulse or sampler running in sync in Ableton. Then, when you want to finalize a mix and save it to disk, you get a mix of both programes bounced down to stereo? But you couldnt say use and autofilter on a drum track that you had running in Logic. You couldnt route a channel from logic and into live.... or could you? Or would you be bothered, most things you can do in live im sure you can do in logic (arrangement wise that is.... not session wise)
P.s, morerecords, do you write in session view? Line up a load of clips and then record a live arrangement?

[j2j]

waves is such a terrible company. A, unless you buy the upgrades your software stops working ( so I hear )

B, the products that the company puts out are easily matched by other dev's today.

Logic is all fine and dandy really, but IMHO, I see no reason why everything can not be done in live. Aside from perfect audio editing, and what not, and ableton really must fix that....

with the proper 3rd parties you can mix in live...

this idea that nuendo has the best sounding engine, is possible, but silly, who can hear these differences...

32 bit floats, are 32 bit floats...

[liveISlife]

yeah Jesso its kind of of annoying that the sound toys boys have not sorted out the bugs yet in the live environment. Yeah man I'm pretty sure Logic can only be used as a rewire master. Meaning all your audio/midi will end up going into logic. So say you have a track in live you could use live effects on it then route it to logic and use logic effects as well on that track. Someone correct me if I am wrong and/or elaborate what it means to be a rewire master/slave and how the routing works.

[jesso]

Ok j2j, so say your like me, and your using live for most everything, and your pretty happy with it.
500 bucks to get sorted with all the necessary plugins to make life beautiful and fully reverberated.

I already have:
Metric Halo Channel strip, (this is nice)
Camelspace and camelcrusher, (dont really use em)
A few freebies (sound ok, but arnt gunna set the world on fire.)

Synthwise, (although thats not the point) I have zebra 2 and a thing called quadrasid, which I lke mucho.

Dont own operator, or any of the new suite.

What would you spend the cash on?
Hit me.

[leedsquietman]

It doesn't have to be either or. Weigh up your options, there are several alternatives.

You can gets lots of great compressors and reverbs without having to go to Waves and pay a premium.

Live's new compressor ROCKS actually. For an in the box compressor, it beats anything Logic has in the box. Although Logic has a nice reverb, there are many convolution reverbs out there. What type of sounds/functionality are you looking for from your compressor?

Stuff like Sonalksis's Essentials Mk 2 costs $599. It has a great compressor, EQ and gate. Sonnox, PSP Audio and others make great plugins too.

Logic's effects are good for in the box, but are still not premium in most instances, there are better 3rd party effects available. Ditto Sonar and Samplitude. For free in the box, excellent but not the best of the best.

I am not a fan of Waves, but there are certain Waves plugins that are good, including C4, Linear Phase EQ, Maxxbass, Metaflanger and IR1. The L1/2/3 are OK but I prefer alternatives.

Rewire - you can't use vsts within Live rewired.

I would say that unless you want the hassle of having to learn a new DAW (and Logic is pretty up their in the rocket science category compared to some other DAWS) that I would spend the money on plugins. Those plugins don't necessarily leave you hostage to Waves, there are other choices.

[derekten]

For what it's worth I've been using logic for ten years and have recently completely ditched it in favour of Live 7.

I find the compressor to be much more flexible in L7 and the modes more audibly different than the logic comp. In my opinion the logic eq's are pretty poor... Also the IRs that come with space designer are sometimes a little distorted - that means when you want a sweet reverb on a snare the tail 'rattles' a little. I bought altiverb and find it far more intuitive to use + leagues better sound wise - which I'm lead to believe is largely because of the IRs.

You have metric halo's CS which I think is awesome... Try out the sonalksis stuff.... the gate, comp and EQ are great + TBK3 rocks.

Finally the reason I've chucked logic (and it feels real good) is because I was hacked off with the bugs. Check out their forum. Things that worked in Logic 4 don't work in Logic 8. Certainly I miss the standards such as bit crusher and chorus, pitch shifter two. Though there are free alternatives. For example if you check out the apple AUs - the pitch shifter in there is pretty good ! Good luck with your decision.

Del

[jesso]

A good verb is my priority. After that, a nice echo/delay unit.
Havnt played with the comp in live 7 much yet, only upgraded recently.
I have the metric halo comp, which does a good job on drums and vocals i feel.
The psp stuff looks good. I mite spring for the reverb and delay units.
A good idea? Just downloading demos now.