Drop outs with VST Instruments

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:40 pm

OK so there are plenty of different reasons people are getting drop outs in Live. My particular problem is quite specific, Live will drop out for around 1/2 second on VSTi's either being played Live or MIDI sequenced in certain songs. Usually associated with samplers of some kind, but it's hard to point to a specific one.

This never happens at start up, only if the VSTi plays after the first bar.

If I go through and play notes on each synth or sampler before hitting play, then this doesn't happen.

If I play the song again after it messes up the first time, it doesn't happen the second time.

The CPU meter doesn't spike, and though I would like to say it's related to samplers in general, in my case Automat and Absynth also have had this problem, Whil GURU doesn't seem to.

As a work around I have set up a few notes in each synth/sampler at the beginning of the song. It still drops out, but if I set the first bar to zero db then the audience won't hear it.

This is on OSX Leopard, Live 6.10
Though a friend is experiencing a similar problem on Tiger.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:49 pm

I've had this for ages. Went back and forth with Ableton about it for years.
In Live 7 they added some kind of "warmup" mode. Meaning that everything should be triggered whilst sound is muted when loading a set.
I'm not to clear on the details though. I suggested a mode like this and when they added it, I was told they went for a different solution. No elaboration on that.

Anyway. The situation improved for me but I think their "warmup" mode still needs some work. Because now you'll get the dropouts at a later stage when something is triggered that wasn't warmed up automatically.

ewistrand · Post by **ewistrand** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:56 pm

It happens with most newer NI synths, Zebra and quite a few others.
As far as I've been able to tell, it happens with synths or samples that use small fixed internal buffers (for example, 16 samples in the case of Zebra) as a way of moderating CPU usage. Live doesn't compensate, and hence will drop the first note.

ew

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Thanks for the replies!

hoffman2k wrote:I've had this for ages. Went back and forth with Ableton about it for years.
In Live 7 they added some kind of "warmup" mode. Meaning that everything should be triggered whilst sound is muted when loading a set.
I'm not to clear on the details though. I suggested a mode like this and when they added it, I was told they went for a different solution. No elaboration on that.

Anyway. The situation improved for me but I think their "warmup" mode still needs some work. Because now you'll get the dropouts at a later stage when something is triggered that wasn't warmed up automatically.

Interesting, so it sort of works better? off to download the demo of 7..... waiting for the latest beta to be cooked before upgrading.
Why do you think something wouldn't be warmed up automatically? Would it be because you added a new instrument?

ewistrand wrote:It happens with most newer NI synths, Zebra and quite a few others.
As far as I've been able to tell, it happens with synths or samples that use small fixed internal buffers (for example, 16 samples in the case of Zebra) as a way of moderating CPU usage. Live doesn't compensate, and hence will drop the first note.

ew

Curious, I thought that problem was related to printed MIDI in a track, not MIDI played via a keyboard controller?

Also, and no offense to them, but WTF mates? Why would a the performance oriented DAW have such an issue with VSTi for so long? Must be some deep code issue? Also, it doesn't just drop out the synth in question, it affects all audio.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:17 pm

yeah. Like I said.. Been back and forth on this issue for ages.

The warmup only seems partial.
Their current fix helps you start off an arrangement glitch free. But that doesn't really do much for instruments that have yet to be used/activated and clips that are triggered.
Not to mention the extensive use of racks in some of my sets.

Though I'm never able to reproduce this fully. Its one of those random occurrences in my case. If you have a fool proof way of reproducing this on other systems then yours, then we might see this thing fixed before the end of the week.
But since its random, its a bloody pain in the arse.
Sometimes a simple reboot will cure these things for a while, making it impossible to demonstrate it on command.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:26 pm

hoffman2k wrote:yeah. Like I said.. Been back and forth on this issue for ages.

The warmup only seems partial.
Their current fix helps you start off an arrangement glitch free. But that doesn't really do much for instruments that have yet to be used/activated and clips that are triggered.
Not to mention the extensive use of racks in some of my sets.

Though I'm never able to reproduce this fully. Its one of those random occurrences in my case. If you have a fool proof way of reproducing this on other systems then yours, then we might see this thing fixed before the end of the week.
But since its random, its a bloody pain in the arse.
Sometimes a simple reboot will cure these things for a while, making it impossible to demonstrate it on command.

Well in my case it's dammed consistent, but related to specific songs. Restarting doesn't help, only playing the synth/sampler in question does. Now if Ablton HQ has NI Komplete, Zebra and the rest of my VSTi on their set ups, it's possible they can recreate this.

Curious, have you had it happen with any of the embedded synths, I know you own Operator for instance?

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:24 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:yeah. Like I said.. Been back and forth on this issue for ages.

The warmup only seems partial.
Their current fix helps you start off an arrangement glitch free. But that doesn't really do much for instruments that have yet to be used/activated and clips that are triggered.
Not to mention the extensive use of racks in some of my sets.

Though I'm never able to reproduce this fully. Its one of those random occurrences in my case. If you have a fool proof way of reproducing this on other systems then yours, then we might see this thing fixed before the end of the week.
But since its random, its a bloody pain in the arse.
Sometimes a simple reboot will cure these things for a while, making it impossible to demonstrate it on command.
Well in my case it's dammed consistent, but related to specific songs. Restarting doesn't help, only playing the synth/sampler in question does. Now if Ablton HQ has NI Komplete, Zebra and the rest of my VSTi on their set ups, it's possible they can recreate this.

Curious, have you had it happen with any of the embedded synths, I know you own Operator for instance?

To say i've had it with everything would be a mighty claim. But the truth probably isn't far from that. It sure feels like its random.

Ableton does have all the stuff you mentioned. I'm pretty sure of that.
So you might actually help by providing them with a set that always goes wrong for you. Along with a detailed list of "wrong events" and plugin versions.
They might even have your exact setup. As you can imagine, Ableton HQ is full of computers. Most of which are under Alex's desk.
Alex is also the person who probably recalls me bringing this up ever since i started bug reports.
I'm not sure how he feels about me saying this, but what the hell.. Send your set along with the details I mentioned to him. He'll either look into it or pass it on to the person that can deal with this problem.

They acknowledged the need for that warmup mode (or humored me by listing it in the improvements). So they're not totally unaware about this.
As somebody who filed a boatload of detailed bug reports, I've always been frustrated about not being to nail this bug. Even remember a moment of euphoria when i thought the bug was gone because i didn't experience it for a while.

If your set helps to squash this bug, I'll buy you a beer or a livepack or something

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:32 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:yeah. Like I said.. Been back and forth on this issue for ages.

The warmup only seems partial.
Their current fix helps you start off an arrangement glitch free. But that doesn't really do much for instruments that have yet to be used/activated and clips that are triggered.
Not to mention the extensive use of racks in some of my sets.

Though I'm never able to reproduce this fully. Its one of those random occurrences in my case. If you have a fool proof way of reproducing this on other systems then yours, then we might see this thing fixed before the end of the week.
But since its random, its a bloody pain in the arse.
Sometimes a simple reboot will cure these things for a while, making it impossible to demonstrate it on command.
Well in my case it's dammed consistent, but related to specific songs. Restarting doesn't help, only playing the synth/sampler in question does. Now if Ablton HQ has NI Komplete, Zebra and the rest of my VSTi on their set ups, it's possible they can recreate this.

Curious, have you had it happen with any of the embedded synths, I know you own Operator for instance?
To say i've had it with everything would be a mighty claim. But the truth probably isn't far from that. It sure feels like its random.

Ableton does have all the stuff you mentioned. I'm pretty sure of that.
So you might actually help by providing them with a set that always goes wrong for you. Along with a detailed list of "wrong events" and plugin versions.
They might even have your exact setup. As you can imagine, Ableton HQ is full of computers. Most of which are under Alex's desk.
Alex is also the person who probably recalls me bringing this up ever since i started bug reports.
I'm not sure how he feels about me saying this, but what the hell.. Send your set along with the details I mentioned to him. He'll either look into it or pass it on to the person that can deal with this problem.

They acknowledged the need for that warmup mode (or humored me by listing it in the improvements). So they're not totally unaware about this.
As somebody who filed a boatload of detailed bug reports, I've always been frustrated about not being to nail this bug. Even remember a moment of euphoria when i thought the bug was gone because i didn't experience it for a while.

If your set helps to squash this bug, I'll buy you a beer or a livepack or something

Cool, Alex is the only higher up at Ableton I've met. really nice guy, and we have similar music tastes.

On my set up, this one song does it every time, in at least two out of the three offending soft synths. VERY consistent.. I'm thinking this is because of Elektrik Piano, it seems very affected by this bug, so in that way it might help the Abes out.
Have to get back to Europe one of these days definitely.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:26 pm

Wait till the weather gets better. Not much to see around here at the moment

Yeah, a set that does this every time is exactly what they need.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:35 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Wait till the weather gets better. Not much to see around here at the moment

Yeah, a set that does this every time is exactly what they need.

Message sent.

My friend has a set that does it every time too, so I'l get on him about it as well. Good part about him is he uses Absynth and Covert Ops stuff pretty exclusively unlike me who doesn't own a house just some good software.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:35 am

Blah! it was Frank I met from Ableton with Urs, not Alex. He'll be confused by my references in the email.