Logic, or save up for waves?

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:42 pm

"before going with the audible test, are you sure this isn't what i just said before?"

-I misunderstood. I def wasn't expecting anyone to do anything but to tell me to go staright to hell...

no, I said sorry about the pussy comment, becasue you sounded offended.
Text can be very ambiguous. What's with that private messgae, it was just '...'

Anyway, I said sorry, because I am not trying to offend you.
Have a good day?

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:45 pm

morerecords wrote:"before going with the audible test, are you sure this isn't what i just said before?"

-I misunderstood. I def wasn't expecting anyone to do anything but to tell me to go staright to hell...

see here:

What's with that private messgae, it was just '...'

I think i wrote in it that you shouldn't leave the thread just because somebody told you to go to hell, because i was trying to have a decent conversation

Have a good day?

You too

edit: BTW Click the pm's to OPEN them. I see they are unread

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:49 pm

oh. many thanks.
somewhere it said 'flagged' I didn't know what that meant in regards to PM

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:51 pm

Flagged??
Have you clicked them yet?

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:55 pm

will do now. Never claimed to be a 'pro' forum guy

Thanks again enjoy mixing in Sonar

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:56 pm

morerecords wrote:will do now. Never claimed to be a 'pro' forum guy

Thanks again enjoy mixing in Sonar

Yeh thanks. Well just going to try out if its really true you get so much more headroom

edit: might as well have done something wrong in fruity. Oh well, dunno if you should be able to see the headroom. now to the audible testing

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:51 am

morerecords wrote:Ilia, did you take the time to read what I wrote in its entireity?
Here it is again. NOw, I really do have to get to making some tunes. Sometimes, I get caught up in these forum debates and 3-4 hours later realize I have been dickin around on the World Wide 'Wow' all day....damn addictive behavior...

Here ya go:

Wow, ilia. You should re-read. I never once mentioned summing until after I made the statement in question, and again, I've never used the master bus in Live and I have never once made a comment on it.Who peed in your cereal this morning? I was talking about this multiband limiting mystery that both Live and Reason have implemented, I couldn't tell you what it is...it is VERY noticable in the low end, but that has more to do with making techno than anything else. If I made guitar heavy country in Live, I might notice it in a different freq range. but I promise there is something going on. Look, I am not bashing your music app of choice, I am a user as well.

edit: after re-reading, those of you that are disputing my words, I don't think you understood what I was talking about, your responses aren't really releated.

When you are working in Live or Reason, there is something happening before your intention. I can tell you it is frequency dependent, and it is levelling your overall output and it is also reflected in individual multitrack bounces, a multiband limiter of some sort. I was commenting on my dislike of this function. What is really curious, is that when you render all tracks (as opposed to rendering master) it is still evident, meaning I suspect it is implemented (I am no computer person, sorry if the lingo is incorrect) BEFORE the option to shape your output's freq spectrum. It's in the staging. I also think that maybe the 'pro' DAWs (I know you hate that, but this is not pro functionality) allow for channels to get blown out, without any compensation, but that may have required considerable additional programming to accomplish, and it may be the exact reason people can hear differences in various audio engines to begin with. There IS more headroom available with the same exact audio in PT, Nuendo, or Logic. Now shoot me down all you want, I don't have time for this, so it will have to be my last response for this thread.
and Agina, FUCK WAVES : )

well dude, whatever your credentials these are some really bizarre claims

if you do a search of audio quality on this forum you'll find a huge lot of debate on the issue, usually with some 'pro' who claims he can hear this mystical difference that is blatantly disproved by the science

do a phase inversion of any of the wave files you are talking about and you will find they cancel 100%

this topic has been dragged through the shit time and time again

in fact it's quite insulting to the developers because they are incredibly knowledgable people and don't enter this lightly

they even put out a white paper on it with Live 7 because so many twits kept coming perpetuating these myths over and over again, most likely just because they misunderstood the warping system and warped files unintentionally

or maybe your other hosts use a different panning law?

doc holiday · Post by **doc holiday** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:38 am

i think jesso has lost his thread

doc holiday · Post by **doc holiday** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:39 am

so back on topic

fuck logic fuck waves and find some better plugs

the choice you don't see may be the best choice

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:52 am

doc holiday wrote:so back on topic

fuck logic fuck waves and find some better plugs

the choice you don't see may be the best choice

that's why it's lost topic because everyone has already said that, jesso has thanked us an morecords is now taking the opportunity to beat his chest

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:28 am

Forge

Only thing off topic is having to defend personal attacks. Otherwise, I am trying to make a reccomendation to Jesso. Fuck it's hard though. Everyone wants to dispute every word.

dude try it yourself. The only person who has, agreed.

His little test gave more than 3db headroom (as dictated by pan laws)

and I suggested something that if you just use your ears, will help you.

I don't know about anything else./
something is going on, that much IS TRUE, and I ahev shared my speculation.

I still love this app and I am not dissing, just wouldn't mix in it

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:01 am

morerecords wrote:Forge

Only thing off topic is having to defend personal attacks. Otherwise, I am trying to make a reccomendation to Jesso. Fuck it's hard though. Everyone wants to dispute every word.

dude try it yourself. The only person who has, agreed.

His little test gave more than 3db headroom (as dictated by pan laws)

and I suggested something that if you just use your ears, will help you.

I don't know about anything else./
something is going on, that much IS TRUE, and I ahev shared my speculation.

I still love this app and I am not dissing, just wouldn't mix in it

but this logic of "my ears are better than science" is totally insane

this has been tested SO MANY TIMES on this forum alone and every time the inversions cancel 100% when compared to otehr DAWs

if there was anything at all going on it would have been proven a long time ago

to suggest that Ableton have stuck some kind of weird multi-band on the channels is completly ludicrous

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:11 am

forge wrote:
morerecords wrote:Forge

Only thing off topic is having to defend personal attacks. Otherwise, I am trying to make a reccomendation to Jesso. Fuck it's hard though. Everyone wants to dispute every word.

dude try it yourself. The only person who has, agreed.

His little test gave more than 3db headroom (as dictated by pan laws)

and I suggested something that if you just use your ears, will help you.

I don't know about anything else./
something is going on, that much IS TRUE, and I ahev shared my speculation.

I still love this app and I am not dissing, just wouldn't mix in it
but this logic of "my ears are better than science" is totally insane

this has been tested SO MANY TIMES on this forum alone and every time the inversions cancel 100% when compared to otehr DAWs

if there was anything at all going on it would have been proven a long time ago

to suggest that Ableton have stuck some kind of weird multi-band on the channels is completly ludicrous

forge - IMO morerecords just needs a little time to get used to the water around here, cut him some slack. he may have stated things in an awkward or incorrect way but I think he's a forum n00b that can offer something in the long run.

/just sayin' 'cause I hounded the guy with rtfm jokes but I think he's OK. if he's not, that'll come out in the long run.

morerecords · Post by **morerecords** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:22 am

It's true Ia m a 'noob' as you say. Thanks for the good words TD.

I am making no claim about audible audio quality, so to speak. I am talking about headroom, and headroom as it applies to cutting plates and making records. I suppose that means quality, but that you are taking offense tells me possibly you think I am sayin git SOUNDS bad. I am not.

ANyway, I don't understand your phase inversion tests, but simply do what I or the other gentleman did.

There is something going on. The more I think about it, I think that the other DAWs are actually doing something preventative, and Live and Reason do not.

I remember when Reason came out, going through this, the sound design possiblitlies of reason are so limitless, and I was so excited to have something liek that available on a computer.

When I cam e acroos these audible results, I took some examples to my mastering engineer. We were stumped as to why The same multitracks summed could be so troubling when cutting our plates. I am not heavy hitter, but trust me, this guys is. He is a freaking wizard, and in fact is the chairman of the most important audio association in the indusrty. I am not sure what you mean by phase inversion tests, but believe me there is something going on. At this point, I really do believe it is in fact the opposite, I don't believe there is any multi-freq levelling or anything encoded in to Live or Reason, but there is in fact something preventative on the side of DAWs. Is that so hard to believe? I mean, You must admit, the details and foresight of a varying 20 year+ software like Logic, Cubase or PT might have some additional coding, beyond a newer app, regardless of how revolutionary the composition approach is?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:30 am

ANyway, I don't understand your phase inversion tests, but simply do what I or the other gentleman did.

take the Utility plug-in.
take a copy of original audio
do some process to the audio
drop the utility plug in on EITHER version of the audio, but only one version
now hit the Phz-L and Phz-R buttons on the Utility plug-in
- now the audio is inverted
- when both bits of audio are at the same volume, whatever they have the same between them cancels out and all you can hear is the differences.

quick and easy way to pick out what's going on inside Live.

there are some really cool tricks with that plug-in, so simple, so handy.

I'll throw you some props but don't think that my word is going to save you from the wolves, they're just as ready to jump on ME.