OT: The End of Suburbia

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

Are you changing your lifestyle yet?

Yes
17
68%
No
3
12%
Doesn't matter, 2012 will sort it out.
5
20%
 
Total votes: 25

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:51 pm

zstowasser wrote:
gjm - your hostility worries me. It looks like you have some spiritual growing to do.
Don't judge a persons spirituality by the way they respond on an internet forum. You have no idea about my story. This form of communication is very limited and you are missing the other forms of non verbal communication that contribute to the big picture.

Just for the record :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol: :D :wink: :wink: at you friends.
American Lifestyle, is built upon buying things we don't need, and throwing them away for more new things we don't need. It becomes wasteful. If we are to be sustainable, we will need to rethink our motivations for society. We should be motivated for the lasting good of society, not for short sighted individualistic consumer greed.
Bullshit. I have not meet one single person in my life who has said "I have absolutly no use for this gadget, but I am going to buy it anyway, just for the sake of buying it." People buy things because the want them. The fact that they have to throw something away that worked perfectly well is the by product of that choice. America's lifestyle was NOT built on buying things so that you can throw shit away. It was built on a fundamental vision that it was a land of opportunity and freedom, that you could have your wants fulfilled. What you are wittnessing is the resulting pattern of that fundamental long serving attitude. Its about a vision of what wealth is.

The concept of 'need' is also a very slippery subject. I use to believe that I needed two cars, until I changed my mind! That simple. Thats why the issues are personal and individualistic. I am not responsible for your choices of when enough is enough, but I am for mine. So this is the reason you will NEVER get consensus on this issue. My neighbours 'enough point' might be 10 times bigger than mine.
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:30 am

Homebelly wrote:
even if you don't fully realize it you have made consumerism your tool and you have stopped being it's slave. The issue now is how do we advocate that change in every one? Its not about taking the tools away,, its about learning to reuse them in some other way while at the same time readdress the balance of how we move about inside of, and utilize our environment.
Some thing all modern western societies seem to have forgotten at a fundamental level is that we are all living for the future. We should not be living for the now, but should be preparing the way for those that come next and dreaming about and planning for a better future for them, while at the same time, having respect for those that came before us,, that is the true essence of community. The way things stand right now means that all our grand children are really likely to inherit is the shit we leave behind and the debts we are creating. not only as individuals, but as a culture on the whole. Thats where the sacrifice has to be on our part,, it's also where i start loose faith as the present reality is s well indoctrinated that it has become part of the norm,,,
Good question. I am here with you on this HB. Its probably a good turning point for the discussion. So let me share with you my attempts. These are my personal attempts and I do not expect that others will follow or agree.

1. My wife and I are committed to the 'Cottage Industry.' Our clients are accutely local. Our forms of revenue are generated by trading with our immediate neighbours. Our traveling is limited. Our reliance on vehicles has diminished. I gained 10 hrs per week of my life back from sitting in my car in commutor traffic!

2. We have decided what our 'Enoughs' are. This is hard to explain, and is very personal. Suffice to say that we upgrade when we 'need' to, not because we want to. (I hope you get the spirit of this one).

3. My wife and I activily model 'critical thinking' skills to our children. The hope is that they will develope enough deepth of thinking that they can question whats going on around them and make choices to the best of their abilities. Maybe thay can spread the same ideas as well.

4. I have honed in on several ways that I can contribute to the health and beauty of my life and surroundings. This is an attempt to ignore what the Jones just got.
-I have a vege garden
-I am attempting to brew my own wine.
-I am trading small amounts of produce with neighbours for their produce.
-I build as much as I can from scrap. One example is that I just built an end table from recycled powerline cross beams.
-I attempt my own art, both musical and visual.

These types of thinking patterns have made big changes for me. I must stress though that this is only 2 years in the making. 5 years ago all that was different was my frame of mind. Same location, different thinking pattern. I changed my mind, not my suburb. They don't look like much written down, but they are significant in practice. Advocating change in people has to start with your own backyard,pun intended. I know my neighbours look over the fence at me sometimes and wonder WTF? But hey, they also are starting to ask why. thats when they are ready to talk. I'll wait until then.

What are you guys doing?
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

dcease
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

Post by dcease » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:48 am

yay! finally a label for me! i am a "doomer", as you put it... seems nice and quaint...


i'll just drop what i've seen, as far as housing development, here in central texas... it's fucked, the whole setup, really. i worked on thousands of homes in the area, maybe tens of thousands. i can only speak from my experience, but i am willing to bet that this is similar all over the US...

a house used to be built, stick by stick, by americans. now, houses are build by numbers, half assembled in a factory, by illegal aliens, from, guess where?! the trusses and walls are prefab, and supposedly engineered to more exacting standards than a crew of men could achieve, building from the ground up. thing is, foundations are poured too small, which means the wood, setup for a certain size, is now too large. so what happens? the manufactured truss is cut. well, seems to me, that would weaken the structural integrity. this is not how the house was intended to be built, yet it happens again and again. i've seen leaky roofs, roofs that blow off, houses in mid construction just blow over, a la the big bad wolf. three of them, in a row. i've seen two story houses, where 30-40% of the foundation was jackhammered, because of plumbing leaks, i've seen plumbing leaks ruin 75% of the sheetrock in a home, brick crumble and crack in less than a year, foundations cracked, within months of pouring... on and on i could go. nobody in their right mind starts a job, and leaves it in a state of danger. if a house is supposed to be braced, until framing is finished, how the fuck does the wind blow it over?

the problem lies in a labor force that gives exactly 2 shits about you and your family. why the fuck would they, they don't even have the common courtesy to learn the language spoken by a majority of the people of the US. i would not even think of moving to france, without learning basic french. how rude!!!
they are cheap, and plentiful. this is modern day slavery, at its best. they don't get over the border for free, after all... yet it continues, unabashed, with no signs of slowing. woe be unto the family living in a home wired by this type of person. not to say all illegals are worthless, there are plenty of americans who are the same way. difference is, americans do not have these jobs, anymore. the ratio is way off balance... way more people who work, not to learn a trade, but to pay off their indenturetude, if thats even a word... they don't care, and they won't. get it and go... do you know how much the dollar is worth in mexico? it's a third world country, for fucks sake. one side of the rio grande, cities, with paved roads, the other side, shacks, with dirt roads. odd sight, driving through el paso...

and what is it for? why are the houses started, and finished in less than three months? the same as it is for everything else... the bottom line. build it as cheap as possible, jack up the value, and interest, and pray it makes it one year. there's a common saying amongst contractors... as long as it works for one year... then they are no longer responsible for the home. building a home, to last for one year, and selling you a thirty year note? now it's not all doom and gloom, the houses don't all fall apart, but it's the mentality that bothers me.

this is usually done in-house, by large companies. they contract out the work, finance the home, and sell the mortgage to the highest bidder, and the consumer, only happy that they will have "their own home", signs an adjustable rate mortgage. now we see what is happening now. everything goes up in price, yet no one makes any more money, save the already rich. then people worry the economy is going to collapse... well duh!!! nobody has any money to spend! you cram them in little boxes, not even worth 1/3 of the principal, jack up their interests rates, because the war has caused everything else to raise in price, so less money is being spent on the extras, subsequently having an adverse effect on the entire market, hence the need to raise the rates... now people are signed on to a loan, that at one point, they could afford, but now can't. add the cost of groceries going up. gas. electricity. necessitiesof our society. another of which is the need to be cool. to have the newest crap. eating out. eating food grown by poor people, in a country that hates you, or on a ranch in america, who, in order to survive, uses our southern neighbors finest to employ. they piss and shit on your food for fun. think they don't? not that it will affect the final product, but the act... what happened with all the vegetable problems not too long ago? who worked at those farms? and don't even get me started on china.

the system is fucked, like it or not. what can you do? live YOUR life, how you feel is best. make the best of what you have. share your joy with your friends. deal with life one day at a time. this is our world, we are the only ones to blame, and only through us will it change.

i imagine all the numbnuts of the world will kill each other off, leaving only people who see life for what it is, to rebuild. and try again. but who can argue with 10,000 +years of greed? this is the course of man, and greed is the wrong path. always has been, always will be. and the less fortunate shall remain wanting.

go ahead, and lie to yourself. humanity cares. about itself. survival of the fittest and all...


and gjm, you may hold the solution right there. do enough people care,for each other, is the real question.

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:17 am

dcease wrote:
and gjm, you may hold the solution right there. do enough people care,for each other, is the real question.
Umm... respectfully asking...did I somehow make a little bit of sense or was that a slam? :? :wink:
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

Homebelly
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Aotearoa New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Homebelly » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:27 am

gjm wrote:[

What are you guys doing?
I try to not live in side a habitat that exceeds my needs. Right now i have a spare room in the basement apartment that i rent and i feel a little guilty that its only used for storage.
i use a small fridge that i only use for immediate use items.
I use the washing machine once a week and dry my cloths on the line out side or on a drying rack inside when it is raining
i don't take shopping bags at the store when i buy anything,, i have a large shoulder bag i use.
i don't buy any thing from any of the franchise shopping malls unless i absolutely have to, i try and find a privately owned shop. Although, i am weak for the food court butter chicken,,
i don't have a car. i don't even have a current NZ drivers license
i walk every where that is with in a 30 minute walk,, further than that i get the bus. i will occasionally get a cab.
I try and keep all my needs local, I live about 40 minutes walk or a twenty minute bus ride from my work.
i avoid going to auckland city unless i absolutely need to, and i keep a list of all the things i need to do so that when i do go there i can do them all in one trip. (I learnt this lesson while living on Waiheke.) i even applied it while living in New Jersey and also Brooklyn New York City.
I buy most of my music on line, partly because it is convenient and all of my music ends up on a hard drive any way, but also because i see it as being less wasteful in terms of packaging and physical space.
i don't have a TV,, i use my computer exclusively for my entertainment needs,both for watching movies that i rent and for the music i down load. I also visit quite a few very diverse news sites of all stripes to get my news and current affairs information. I then use the time i might otherwise have wasted watching shortland street or TV Idol to visit other news sites or information repositories to learn about the history behind the stories in the news. I almost loath and detest the NZ news media, it reminds me of a well financed high school news project that looks good, sounds great, but delivers very little content. This is especially true for the TV news and current affairs programs,, i swear to god that if i'm in front of a TV and John Camble name drops another rock star celebrity such as Fat Freddies or Anika Moa again i'm gonna go to his house piss in his weetbix and shit on his tooth brush, No matter how hard he tries he is about as clever as a chimp and as hip as my granddads old cardigan. I also hate the biased well sold disparaging subliminal message that lives inside every story about Maori, or almost every thing to do with the treaty and Maoris right to Tino Rangatiratanga, This alone is the most ill informed and misunderstood topic in NZ right now.
Beyond that,,
I tread the earth lightly and carry a big stick.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Sibanger
Posts: 2235
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:44 am
Location: Melbourne/Australia
Contact:

Post by Sibanger » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:40 am

gjm wrote:
Good question. I am here with you on this HB. Its probably a good turning point for the discussion. So let me share with you my attempts. These are my personal attempts and I do not expect that others will follow or agree.

1. My wife and I are committed to the 'Cottage Industry.' Our clients are accutely local. Our forms of revenue are generated by trading with our immediate neighbours. Our traveling is limited. Our reliance on vehicles has diminished. I gained 10 hrs per week of my life back from sitting in my car in commutor traffic!

2. We have decided what our 'Enoughs' are. This is hard to explain, and is very personal. Suffice to say that we upgrade when we 'need' to, not because we want to. (I hope you get the spirit of this one).

3. My wife and I activily model 'critical thinking' skills to our children. The hope is that they will develope enough deepth of thinking that they can question whats going on around them and make choices to the best of their abilities. Maybe thay can spread the same ideas as well.

4. I have honed in on several ways that I can contribute to the health and beauty of my life and surroundings. This is an attempt to ignore what the Jones just got.
-I have a vege garden
-I am attempting to brew my own wine.
-I am trading small amounts of produce with neighbours for their produce.
-I build as much as I can from scrap. One example is that I just built an end table from recycled powerline cross beams.
-I attempt my own art, both musical and visual.

These types of thinking patterns have made big changes for me. I must stress though that this is only 2 years in the making. 5 years ago all that was different was my frame of mind. Same location, different thinking pattern. I changed my mind, not my suburb. They don't look like much written down, but they are significant in practice. Advocating change in people has to start with your own backyard,pun intended. I know my neighbours look over the fence at me sometimes and wonder WTF? But hey, they also are starting to ask why. thats when they are ready to talk. I'll wait until then.

What are you guys doing?
And someone here questions your spiritual health. 8O
I love what you are doing(and Homebelly too), and may people like yourselves be an inspiration to the many others that need to be reminded that there are other ways to live outside the square.
Good work guys.

Homebelly
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Aotearoa New Zealand
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Post by Homebelly » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:03 am

dcease.
I've spent a bit of time in Texas,, El Passo in fact, along with Dallas and a little time in Houston. I dated a girl from Texas for quite a while while i lived in NYC and stayed friends with her after that didn't work out, so i have some understanding of how the direct nature of the texan mind set works. On that note i'll assume your post isn't based on a racist undertone.

The shitting and pissing in food allegation i'm going to assume is based on the e.coli in the spinach issue that occurred in the US last year. If i'm right then tis had very little to do with e.coli of human origin. There is also the issue of e.coli in a large amount of US grade meat. This also has very little to do with the hygiene of the workers and has a whole lot ore to do with the way these animals are feed, reared and processed.

The issue of illegal immigration isn't just a US issue. Its one that exists any where a very wealthy country is neighbors with lots of very poor countries. The UK has a problem, Germany has a problem, France, South Africa and so on,,
It has less to do with exploitation on the part of the illegal immigrant, and more to do with them taking advantage of a situation we have created in our pursuit of an upwardly mobile capitalist life style. It isn't so much that these people are taking jobs away from respectable hard working citizens,, it more about those same citizens feeling they are above those jobs. This is partly down to the ideal that these jobs have no worth and so there is no longer pride in doing them, and so the renumeration for those jobs drops along with the work standard, while the profits rise.
When things where going well and every thing was expanding we didn't really give a shit about illegal imigration, didn't matter where you where in the world, that was some thing the government had to worry about,, some places made cursory shows of rounding up and sending them back,, to use Texas as an example, when i was in El Passo i heard some very funny stories about the escapades of the INS and boarder patrol in this regard during the eighties and early nineties,, Other countries such as France, Germany and Holland created social services and registration programs to help deal with the problem, some even went so far as to try and intervene and mediate in the countries that these people where coming from to try and find some peaceful way to bring about change and opportunity that might encourage some of those people to stay put,, some times it worked,, some times it didn't.

The bottom line though is that i don't think there is any malicious intent on the part of these illegals in regards their hosts,, it's just simply that they want a piece of the dream we seem to be living and are prepared to work as hard as our grandparents did to get it,,,
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:47 am

Homebelly wrote:
The bottom line though is that i don't think there is any malicious intent on the part of these illegals in regards their hosts,, it's just simply that they want a piece of the dream we seem to be living and are prepared to work as hard as our grandparents did to get it,,,
Good observation. Five years ago I employed for 2 1/2 years a young man from Sri Lanka. (He was legal). He was a total green horn, but FUCK could that guy work! I had 7 apprentices in total. He was by far the least paid. He was also the only non Kiwi. The other 6 routinely complained that they wern't paid enough, that they were always broke. They all smoked, had mobile phones, ran boy racer cars and bought into image in a big way. Mean while, this green horn worked extra hours every time I asked, bought a responsible little Honda, always eat a home made lunch, sent several thousand dollars back home to his family and was always happy. It all came down to one thing. A job for him was a PRIVILAGE, not a RIGHT. He taught me a big lesson :oops: :D
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

dcease
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

Post by dcease » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:07 am

homebelly

nah, i hear what you are saying. if people think i am racist, they don't know me, which would apply to everyone here. i work with these people, and i see them for what they are... exactly that. people. nothing more, nothing less. i extend the same courtesy to any human on the planet, an asshole is an asshole, regardless of skin color, language, or religion/lack there of. i deal with large groups of the illegals, and a good majority hate on americans, all the while, using our country to make their lives better, sending money back home. fuck it, get it while the gittins good. this is oxymoronic, at best, and indicative of the general hypocrisy of the world.

all i ask, is for them to learn my fucking language. i did not move to their country.

and, if you re-read my post, i stated that people pissing/shitting on food probably didn't affect the final product, rather it's the thought, would you like it, if you knew the bus boy in a resturant used your napkin to jerk off on, no matter how many times it had been washed?. i was merely pointing out the spinach breakout for what it was, gross negligence on the farm's/farms part, aided by growers who give a shit, and owners who only care about profit. if it sounds like i was saying illegals pissed on the spinach, and everyone got sick, i guess i could have made it a little clearer, so there's clarification.

they bust their ass, that's for sure. but i'd rather buy a german mic, than a chinese mic, for more than one reason...

and i am not a "texan", or any other label you want to place on me. i am just that, me. if you must label me, american will do. and i work just as hard as they do, but i respect my job, and never take it for granted. can i have some of this dream? because i sure see a lot of reality... and the reality is a bunch of people are out for themselves, fuck everyone else. i don't create the mentality, merely observe, and convey. you don't have to like, or agree.

as a matter of fact, i hope it isn't true for anyone. but let's be real, we are not in super fun imaginary land... some, more, most people just don't give a fuck, soon rather stab you in the back, just for a little bit more... but maybe that's just america... although a lot of good happens, ass well. i let other people focus on feeling better about the world, i look at it like this. if one child dies of hunger/dehydration, then far too many have. thus, we are all guilty, and should acknowledge this, at the least. this is bullshit, plain and simple. every person on this planet deserves, and should have access to food and clean water. until then, feel good about yourself. i will not be joining you.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:21 am

why do they need to learn english when it's obvious they can already get a job.

the dudes that put in some carpet for me were Mexican, one spoke English, the other didn't. hardest working motherfuckers I've seen in a LOOOONG time. I had to stick around because Comcast (cable TV) was going to show up sometime between 4am and 11pm. the carpet guys showed up and worked non-stop from 9am to 4pm, not even a break for lunch or nothing. it's hard hard work doing carpet. nice guys, I spoke spanish with the guy who didn't know much english, he appreciated that, we even exchanged a few jokes. oh, and the chick who did the cable install was late, creepy, lazy and took forever, she wasn't latino.

same thing for the guys that trimmed the doors to fit the carpet, the non English speaking one was super cool, great sense of humor and was even playing me for my Spanish.

I've also never seen a non-latino standing outside paint or home improvement stores waiting for a job.

why not enjoy a little diversity and learn some Spanish. damn dude, look at all the Euro-goons around here with English as their second language. you live near the border, stop dragging the culture down.

I think less of you for your rant. the other guys are a lot nicer than me, but I guess that's already known. ;) I'll douche and get over it.

and not everyone who doesn't speak english is an illegal, that's just a convenient label you give them. cute how you avoid labeling yourself. :roll:

blah blah blah, happy motherfucking Friday, btw. :D

wait, you're not Texan but you live in Texas????
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

dcease
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

Post by dcease » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:16 am

Tone Deft wrote:blah blah blah, happy motherfucking Friday, btw. :D
we're not fighting this friday, tone=) nice bait, tho...TROLL!!!

total thread jack, by the way, how did we manage to turn suburbia into d. hates mexicans? lololol!!!

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:19 am

dcease wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:blah blah blah, happy motherfucking Friday, btw. :D
we're not fighting this friday, tone=) nice bait, tho...TROLL!!!

total thread jack, by the way, how did we manage to turn suburbia into d. hates mexicans? lololol!!!
never underestimate the power of tequila.

it's not easy being a whiny ass liberal.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Homebelly
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Aotearoa New Zealand
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Post by Homebelly » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:54 am

Tone Deft wrote: never underestimate the power of tequila.
now that deserves a thread all by it's self,,
And home made Jamaican rum as well while we're at it!!!
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

dcease
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

Post by dcease » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:00 am

Homebelly wrote:
Tone Deft wrote: never underestimate the power of tequila.
now that deserves a thread all by it's self,,
And home made Jamaican rum as well while we're at it!!!
fuck it. just jack dudes. shit was gettin too real, anyway. let's flip the thread into...party tonight in suburbia! address www.ableton.com/forum...

just keep the tequila away from me... y'all don't want me that happy...

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:02 am

Ummm... Anybody for plum wine? :?
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