OT: The End of Suburbia

[dcease]

Ummm... Anybody for plum wine?

you made it, right? i'll def. try some!

[Tone Deft]

Ummm... Anybody for plum wine?

how much do you have?

[dcease]

where's kk? heard he knew the best threads to get drunk in...

[Sibanger]

Ummm... Anybody for plum wine?

I'd really like to try some.
I love plums and I love wine.

Is it an acquired taste? Any good, or does it taste like shit?

[Homebelly]

Ummm... Anybody for plum wine?

Fucking Hippies,,,

[zstowasser]

where the hell did this thread go?

gjm - we're on the same page but you must like to argue and get angry?? Yes the question is "how much is enough" or "do you really need this?"

I'm sure our perceptions of american lifestyle is much different. I'm from california (a small town, first town to ban smoking in restaurants, no drive-thrus, first farmers market).. I spent a good amount of time in both san francisco ( liberal / green-ish ) and la ( super rich and super poor, a fucking disgusting city with no redeeming qualities). and now I live in Las Vegas (came for the club scene but grew out of it). So I can see a variety of sub-cultures in the south west. I have been to the north west and I really liked the people and cities up there - more forward thinking. I really liked portland - there is still light rail from the city to the suburbs there!!). I have been to vancouver - what a beautiful city. and victoria - awesome!. I have also been through idaho (omg, white trash central) and through the midwest (scary!).

I don't know how you live or how NZ live, and you don't know how I live or what I've seen. But we can both agree that there is a limit that currently must come from ourselves to decide what we need and what we don't.

homebelly is thankfully elaborating more for me, and we're all on the same page here. I think i'm a bit jaded because I live here in vegas and this place is total excess and waste. It's scary. Is this the best we can do? I don't have hope for us to change before it's too late. I think we'll come to a point where we don't have a choice anymore between what we need and what we don't. We'll be limited in our resources to just be happy with what we can get. Those who learn to live within their means and buy only when they absolutely need to and not when they feel they "want" to (and maybe being manipulated by the media/advertising/social pressures to be cool).

It sounds like we're all moving in the right direction. Yes change comes from within. Protect yourself and your family and change yourself first. Walk the talk. Then go about and try to help your community. By changing yourself, you will find needs to become sustainable and in turn it could become a business! (I think this is what you're saying gjm).

dcease - great rant man! ha! not sure about the e.coli thing - but I agree on the housing problems - same thing here in vegas. They are made with cheap labor for the sole purpose of making a cheap buck and they could care less if they last. you're right - 1 year - yet we have 30+ year mortgages. Mine is 40 year - 10 is interest only then 30. my house has lost about 70K in value in the past few months and it keeps on going..

We're in quite the economic crisis right now and it's going to get worse. The purpose of this post is to get people to realize that our way of life cannot go on forever like this. It will be easier to survive in the future if we are mentally prepared for the change and have looked at other ways of living and interacting / working with our community. Those who don't change will have a tough time surviving.

A good film that helped me not worry about the future and realize we're on a schedule is Ian Lungold's presentation on the Mayan Calendar and 2012 - fascinating stuff. The calendar started 16.4 billion years ago (big bang) and ends around 2011/2012 (there is a difference of opinion on the exact end) - The calendar maps out our evolution of consciousness. And shows why time is speeding up and we have all these advances lately. It's really cool and inspiring! Also teaches why we must trust our intuition!

"The Mayan Calendar Comes North"

Part 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0
Part 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1
Short Sample (1min):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=3

[zstowasser]

any responses? Or did the mayan calendar freak you guys out?

[gjm]

Zstowasser wrote:

gjm - we're on the same page but you must like to argue and get angry??

As I have suggested to you before, internet forums don’t have certain non verbal forms of communication. Stay away from making judgments on peoples characters based solely on the written word. Its only a small part of the picture.

I don’t like to argue. I like having discussions. If you want the opportunity to influence my mind then you must offer me the same courtesy. Discussions happen when you can simultaneously hold your position but genuinely entertain another. Arguments happen when you are unable to offer your position to genuine challenge.

I am not angry. I don’t like getting angry. It’s a waste of emotion.


Zstowasser wrote:

A good film that helped me not worry about the future and realize we're on a schedule is Ian Lungold's presentation on the Mayan Calendar and 2012 - fascinating stuff. The calendar started 16.4 billion years ago (big bang) and ends around 2011/2012 (there is a difference of opinion on the exact end) - The calendar maps out our evolution of consciousness. And shows why time is speeding up and we have all these advances lately. It's really cool and inspiring! Also teaches why we must trust our intuition!

"The Mayan Calendar Comes North"

Part 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0
Part 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1

I watched the videos. Some points to consider.

1. They have nothing to do with the original post. i.e. the End of Suburbia.

2. They offer no conclusion. There is nothing to use the information for.

3. Large parts of the information presented in the calendar is pure conjecture.

4. It is convenient that the Totem that was discovered with all of the TUN calendar dates has disintegrated, shortly after somebody made charcoal rubbings of the surface. This means now that only a select few have had eye witness accounts of the real deal. This is similar to say the Mormon Church’s golden tablets which were discovered by Joseph Smith… the founder of the Mormon Organization in the 1800’s. These golden tablets are nowhere to be found.

5. To give the numbers behind the calendar any credibility you need to consider the authors of the calendar. Numbers in their basic form are similar to an alphabet. When used with certain groupings and symbols they can be used to describe concepts and events. Fundamentally, numbers need a reference point in order to make any sense. That reference point is zero. Zero as a form of measuring time can have two meanings. Either the beginning is zero, the start point, or the middle, negative in one direction and positive in the other.

In order for you to locate the middle of something that is lineal, you must know both the beginning and the end. If you identify a start point but have no visible conclusion then you don’t have a middle point. If the end is not observable, then neither is the middle. Simple.
The authors of the calendar were not present at the beginning of time, some 16.4 billion years ago (according to the start date of the Mayan calendar depicted on the now ‘lost’ totem). They would have had to have counted backwards from their point in time to locate the beginning. What would they have counted backwards from? If they are to use the man made ‘alphabet’ of numbers to delineate the progress of time and the general evolution of the universe, how did they know where to position themselves in the calendar without being present at either the beginning or the end of the lineal time scale depicted in this particular calendar? Think about it. The only conclusion is that they were given a reference from an outside source. Aliens or a God in the absolute sense.

6. The video goes onto say that we should now in 2008 be conversing with aliens in an ethical way for ultimate universal consciousness. It also says that we should have developed teleporting capabilities as a human skill. Some of the members of the audience were aware of the possibility for portions of the human race to leave with these aliens, or at least teleport their minds into the cosmos somewhere, presumably with aliens.

This seems very similar to a type of thinking that led to some horrible circumstances in the mid 90’s with a cult based in California called heavens gate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult) . They were convinced that a space ship was travelling in the tail of a comet called Hale-Bopp. They were also convinced that there was an end coming depicted as a ‘refreshing’ of the earth. Some of the people in the video had an awareness of similar beliefs. The presenter of the Mayan Calendar seemed to be open to such thoughts. Sounds dodgy to me.

Zstowasser, my advice to you is that you should engage in a discussion in the manner I suggested at the beginning of this post with somebody OUTSIDE of your current circle of belief. There are other ways of viewing the events of the world. I don’t mind the attempt that was made to apply the calendar as a historical structure. I do think though that there is NO BASIS in common sense to suggest that this guys version of the calander is accurate. I am also concerned that ALIENS have arrived

[Homebelly]

Zstowasser wrote:

I am also concerned that ALIENS have arrived

Isn't the Lemur all the proof you need???

As to the video,,,
I want to believe some of this stuff,, i really really do,, the trouble is his view of history and discovery seems to be a lot more plastic than mine. one example, he puts the beginning of Islam before the beginning of Christianity,,
There was also some bending of the truth in one or two of the technological examples that implied they had happened at a time convenient to the 13 day analogy rather than when they actually did. This was also true for some of the evolutionary examples he gave. I'm sure the implication wasn't meant to be taken literately that events took place on specific days or at specific times,, but it did come close a couple of times.
Its also important to realize, i think, that this talk took place around 94-95 and i'm not sure much of what he predicted to happen after that has in fact happened,,
Or has it???

All in all i think there might be some thing to the over all idea of the three calenders and how they work together, along side the idea of internal time as apposed to our concept of external time,, this is a phenomena that exists in many tribal and indigenous non western cultures,, some don't even have a concept of past present or future in the same lineal fashion as we do.
there was also some truth to his ideas of the catholic churches history of control and oppression,,But on the whole i think most of his message is flawed to say the least,,
I don't think its time for us to start hording dried or canned food just yet.

[gjm]

Zstowasser wrote:

I am also concerned that ALIENS have arrived

Isn't the Lemur all the proof you need???

As to the video,,,
I want to believe some of this stuff,, i really really do,, the trouble is his view of history and discovery seems to be a lot more plastic than mine. one example, he puts the beginning of Islam before the beginning of Christianity,,
There was also some bending of the truth in one or two of the technological examples that implied they had happened at a time convenient to the 13 day analogy rather than when they actually did. This was also true for some of the evolutionary examples he gave. I'm sure the implication wasn't meant to be taken literately that events took place on specific days or at specific times,, but it did come close a couple of times.
Its also important to realize, i think, that this talk took place around 94-95 and i'm not sure much of what he predicted to happen after that has in fact happened,,
Or has it???

All in all i think there might be some thing to the over all idea of the three calenders and how they work together, along side the idea of internal time as apposed to our concept of external time,, this is a phenomena that exists in many tribal and indigenous non western cultures,, some don't even have a concept of past present or future in the same lineal fashion as we do.
there was also some truth to his ideas of the catholic churches history of control and oppression,,But on the whole i think most of his message is flawed to say the least,,
I don't think its time for us to start hording dried or canned food just yet.

+1. Well put HB.

The video I saw was made in 2004. He used 911 as a example for his argument.

[zstowasser]

As I have suggested to you before, internet forums don’t have certain non verbal forms of communication. Stay away from making judgments on peoples characters based solely on the written word. Its only a small part of the picture.

All we have to communicate here are emoticons and words. So choose wisely. I am not telepathic.

I don’t like to argue. I like having discussions. If you want the opportunity to influence my mind then you must offer me the same courtesy. Discussions happen when you can simultaneously hold your position but genuinely entertain another. Arguments happen when you are unable to offer your position to genuine challenge.

Bullshit.

What kind of emotion does that convey? I sensed possibly anger, frustration or hostility.

Your statement is just plain stupid...

If you want me to continue this discussion, please consider your choice of words that will foster intelligent debate.

1. They have nothing to do with the original post. i.e. the End of Suburbia.

Yes It does, the calendar shows time speeding up and an evolution of consciousness and great change happening very soon.

2. They offer no conclusion. There is nothing to use the information for.

True, the conclusion is open to interpretation. I think that may be part of the plan, we create our own ending. What kind of world do we want to live in? How will we treat ourselves, others, the earth and the universe?

3. Large parts of the information presented in the calendar is pure conjecture.

True. Some of the dates happened "around" something and he is aware of it and makes that statement. Keep in mind that Evolution is just a theory and so is gravity. We must not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there is something to this calendar and it explains a lot regarding the changes we've been seeing in the last 100+ years.

4. It is convenient that the Totem that was discovered with all of the TUN calendar dates has disintegrated, shortly after somebody made charcoal rubbings of the surface. This means now that only a select few have had eye witness accounts of the real deal. This is similar to say the Mormon Church’s golden tablets which were discovered by Joseph Smith… the founder of the Mormon Organization in the 1800’s. These golden tablets are nowhere to be found.

I'll have to research this to double check but from what I understand the ancient mayan ancenstors still retained the information. It's very different than the mormon story where one person found it. A whole civilization in history revolved around these calendars and they built their pyramids upon it.

5. To give the numbers behind the calendar any credibility you need to consider the authors of the calendar. Numbers in their basic form are similar to an alphabet. When used with certain groupings and symbols they can be used to describe concepts and events. Fundamentally, numbers need a reference point in order to make any sense. That reference point is zero. Zero as a form of measuring time can have two meanings. Either the beginning is zero, the start point, or the middle, negative in one direction and positive in the other.

In order for you to locate the middle of something that is lineal, you must know both the beginning and the end. If you identify a start point but have no visible conclusion then you don’t have a middle point. If the end is not observable, then neither is the middle. Simple.
The authors of the calendar were not present at the beginning of time, some 16.4 billion years ago (according to the start date of the Mayan calendar depicted on the now ‘lost’ totem). They would have had to have counted backwards from their point in time to locate the beginning. What would they have counted backwards from? If they are to use the man made ‘alphabet’ of numbers to delineate the progress of time and the general evolution of the universe, how did they know where to position themselves in the calendar without being present at either the beginning or the end of the lineal time scale depicted in this particular calendar? Think about it. The only conclusion is that they were given a reference from an outside source. Aliens or a God in the absolute sense.

- That's how the story goes - someone came to them and gave them the information. Another part of the puzzle is how are there Pyramids in the middle east that came around the same time and they are unexplained? Who knows.. it is still interesting

6. The video goes onto say that we should now in 2008 be conversing with aliens in an ethical way for ultimate universal consciousness. It also says that we should have developed teleporting capabilities as a human skill. Some of the members of the audience were aware of the possibility for portions of the human race to leave with these aliens, or at least teleport their minds into the cosmos somewhere, presumably with aliens.

Yeah, this is my only complaint. He gets ahead of himself and starts to 'predict' the future, which is a departure from the anthropological science that, to me, was the fascinating part of the film.

We HAVE however, teleported particles and maybe the other things HAVE happened but we just don't know about it. What do you think about crop circles?

This seems very similar to a type of thinking that led to some horrible circumstances in the mid 90’s with a cult based in California called heavens gate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult) . They were convinced that a space ship was travelling in the tail of a comet called Hale-Bopp. They were also convinced that there was an end coming depicted as a ‘refreshing’ of the earth. Some of the people in the video had an awareness of similar beliefs. The presenter of the Mayan Calendar seemed to be open to such thoughts. Sounds dodgy to me.

I won't be joining a cult anytime soon

Zstowasser, my advice to you is that you should engage in a discussion in the manner I suggested at the beginning of this post with somebody OUTSIDE of your current circle of belief.

I discuss with people outside of my belief all the time! It's great. Here I am talking with you and open to others to reply to the post and add their opinions as well! I also moved to a new town a year ago and have made many friends and have learned many things and shared many things. It's beautiful. Those who respectfully disagree, I listen. Those who call my ideas bullshit lose my respect if it continues to happen. I give people a few chances to come around

There are other ways of viewing the events of the world. I don’t mind the attempt that was made to apply the calendar as a historical structure. I do think though that there is NO BASIS in common sense to suggest that this guys version of the calander is accurate. I am also concerned that ALIENS have arrived

Years ago common sense was that the world was flat.

gjm it is important for you to learn to have an open mind and trust your intuition.

2012 could be nothing or it could be something. I just wanted to share and make sure you guys were aware. It's too bad that Ian died and he can't keep talking about it. Luckily his partner from sweden is still alive and talking about the calendar. He believes in 2012 we will have a merging of eastern and western philosophies. "the end of time"

Keep in mind that other cultures have had prophecies about 2012. Some think 2012 will bring doomsday and the end of the world. It could be just an astrological shift from pisces to aquarius.

I think its fascinating and I see great change happening in cycles eerily similar to what the mayan calendar predicts. Ron Paul had a huge push in november, right around when the 5th night started which is called "destruction". last time we had that was WW2, this time I hope it is just a destruction of ideas and we don't have WW3 happening. Also a financial crisis was prophesied during the 5th night, which we are watching as we type. The 5th night ends november 2008 - right after the US elections.

interesting.

much love.

[gjm]

zstowasser wrote:

All we have to communicate here are emoticons and words. So choose wisely. I am not telepathic.

Ok.

What kind of emotion does that convey? I sensed possibly anger, frustration or hostility.

I can't resist this.... I thought you wern,t telepathic? (attempt at light hearted joke to asure you I am not angry!!)

If you want me to continue this discussion, please consider your choice of words that will foster intelligent debate.

You could do with a little (just a little toughening up. A thick skin can help

gjm wrote:

1. They have nothing to do with the original post. i.e. the End of Suburbia.
zstowasser wrote
Yes It does, the calendar shows time speeding up and an evolution of consciousness and great change happening very soon.

No it doesen't. Suburbia in all of its form has existed for several thousand years. It might end as you know it, but another version of suburbia will take its place.

gjm wrote:

3. Large parts of the information presented in the calendar is pure conjecture.
zstowasser wrote:
True. Some of the dates happened "around" something and he is aware of it and makes that statement. Keep in mind that Evolution is just a theory and so is gravity. We must not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there is something to this calendar and it explains a lot regarding the changes we've been seeing in the last 100+ years.

The conjecture I was talking about was the primitive mans use of art, the reason Neandertal died out, the dates chosen for mamalian births etc, and the spicific historical events chosen to illustrate the calander as well.

I don't deny that the whole calendar system of the Mayans is interesting. My interest was peaked.

gjm wrote:

4. It is convenient that the Totem that was discovered with all of the TUN calendar dates has disintegrated, shortly after somebody made charcoal rubbings of the surface. This means now that only a select few have had eye witness accounts of the real deal. This is similar to say the Mormon Church’s golden tablets which were discovered by Joseph Smith… the founder of the Mormon Organization in the 1800’s. These golden tablets are nowhere to be found.
zstowasser wrote:
I'll have to research this to double check but from what I understand the ancient mayan ancenstors still retained the information. It's very different than the mormon story where one person found it. A whole civilization in history revolved around these calendars and they built their pyramids upon it.

This is part of the argument you would need to overcome. You need to be sure that the transference of information from generation to generation had the same intent and understanding of the original authors or givers. On average over the ages the entire population of the earth dies every 40-70 years. The whole lot is replaced. What also gets replaced is the understanding of certain types of knowledge. Carving and pictures have been used in the past to help recall information for geneology purposes. Also to depicte cosmological events to name but two. You have to be sure that the original information was not diluted through these population changes. You have to ask where is the current living Mayan "holders" of this information. Why would they have needed to put it on a totem pole in the first place? Why is it not freely avaliable in its original intent from living Mayan decendants? There are some simple social experiments that will show you how ffragile passing information on from one person to the next via word of mouth really is.

I won't be joining a cult anytime soon

Good to hear

gjm it is important for you to learn to have an open mind and trust your intuition.

Ummm. How do you know my mind is closed? How do you know I do not use my intuition? Again, you do not know my story. You have no idea how open minded I am, or not.

zstowasser wrote:

much love.

Back at ya.

[zstowasser]

Thanks for the clarifications - yes the end of suburbia as we know it, and I am talking as an american about america. I dont know the history of suburbia around the world, but the history I learned in this film was that suburbia developed after ww2. we're talking shopping malls, supermarkets, huge subdivisions with no mom'n'pop shops, urban sprawl filled with dead-end minimum wage corporate jobs that require on centralized distribution and globalized slave wage labor. I'm not sure of the Suburbia you are referring to, maybe just people living outside of the center of a city? Could you elaborate?

the mayan calendar is mathematical in cycles so its a simple formula to count backwards, all you need is a date on either end and you can calculate it. The mayans were slaughtered by the spanish roman catholics so they destroyed almost all of their history and information, how convenient, I know. I think there are pictures of the mayan ruin. There are also archaeological pieces from the Aztecs who shared the calendar and many in central/north america shared similar pieces of the philosophy/calendar including early native americans.

I have read enough to have 'faith' in the accuracy in the preservation of the history and calendar from those who are still surviving in southern mexico. The biggest part of what intrigues me is how I can see time speeding up and how we had the most peace from 92-99 and then from 99 on, life has been crazy with changes every year.

Like Ian said, maybe they're coincidences or maybe we're on a schedule

I'm going to keep living my life by doing what feels right (trusting my intuition), and using logic and science to guide me primarily. Credit, Energy and resource scarcity are real problems

[gjm]

zstowasser wrote:

the mayan calendar is mathematical in cycles so its a simple formula to count backwards, all you need is a date on either end and you can calculate it.

Exactly. No such dates exist. Only conjecture. Counting forwards or backwards from a point in time has to be observable 'outside' of that time. Where is that observation point? If you reject a God in the traditional and absolute sense, then I take it that you opt for aliens to have given that reference point.

I have read enough to have 'faith'

The trump card! This is an entirely big and different issue Suggesting that faith resolves the need to question as deeply as you can go can be seen as sticking your head in the sand. If you are relying on logic then you don't need faith. Qualifying the word faith and its use with logic is a HUGE task.

The biggest part of what intrigues me is how I can see time speeding up...

I believe Einstien had a theory about time speeding up. I have heard others build on similar views in the 80's and 90's that can be mathmatically arrived at. Lets be clear though, the Mayan calendar says NOTHING about time speeding up, it says that the time in which advancements take place TAKE LESS TIME. ie instead of 1,000,000 years they take 412 years. You have to correct this use of terms.

Edited as an attempt to convey an appropriate spirit of communication.

[Homebelly]

Keep in mind that Evolution is just a theory and so is gravity.

Please don't become one of these people that confuse the meaning of the word "Theory" and use it in place of the word 'Hypothesis' .

When discussing a scientific principle a 'Theory' is a testable model that will produce the same results every time using a distinct set of actions no mater who, how or what performs those actions. Further to this, a theory must also be able to predict the out come of that process and provide a set or series of falsifications that could enter into the process to produce a different result. This would then "prove" the theory sound.

In this regard both Evolution and Gravity are very much real and so the theory is proven true.

An unfortunate result of people not being taught the correct use of language or grammar any more is that the word theory has often become interchangeable with the word 'Hypothesis".

A hypothesis is a projected idea.
You might hypothesis that under a certain set of circumstances a new theory could be formed. You would then set out to assemble the facts to build this theory.

At some point you may even be able to extend an already existing theory or even find some set of repeatable actions that are able to prove a theory incomplete.
It is very unlikely that you will ever be able to prove a theory wrong.
The example of the idea that we all thought the world was flat until some one proved it wasn't doesn't really work because it assumes we where all wondering if it was flat or if it was round to begin with,, it also presupposes a level of education that didn't exist. Most people had no concern for the shape of the earth as it had nothing to do with their day to day lives,, the only people in Western history that had any concern where astronomers, sailer's and the church.

Sailer's had no concerns in this regard as they where sailing beyond the horizon all the time,, the church had a small issue with the idea as it played against the tower of bable story and the scattering of gods children,,
The astronomers where well onto it as they could tell stuff was spinning around. and could model these actions using maths or geometry. The only time it almost became a real issue was when the hypothesis was put forward that the theory that the sun orbited the earth was flawed,, it became an even bigger issue when this theory was proven true as this really went against the grain in the churches idea that the earth was the center of gods creation and so every thing must be revolving around it.
Other cultures have had differing ideas about the shape of the earth and it's relation to the other planets and stars,, but these have been less to do with worrying about it and more to do with there forms of philosophy, theology and science being more internal than the western versions being more external. For this reason the ideas are more myth based and so can be very odd to read as they include ideas about pillars,, floating islands in a void,, multi-layered sandwich type arrangements,, or even no distinction between a beginning and an end or an earth and a sky,,

This is where the creationists fall down.
They have every right to put forward a new Hypothesis on the theory of evolution and can even add conjecture to that hypothesis stating that a creator god,, or even alians,, made the earth and all the beings that live on it. But they have to be able to prove this is true for it to be considered a theory by providing a set of facts. And so far they can not, they are only able to put forward more and more hypothetical ideas and conjecture about the existence of a creator god, or alians,, that relies more and more on faith or some other metaphysical explanation. The only people that can prove the "Theory" that creationism is correct are other people qualified in a faith based discipline and so are taught to suspend there need for facts.