US soldier throws puppy off cliff.
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Machinesworking
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- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
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I have friends that are right wing christians, and relatives that until very recently were not supportive of the civil rights movement in the 60's here. It's very simple, in both cases they were on the side of intolerance and hatred, (right wing guy was pro Iraq until very recently ), if they had suffered the consequences of their choices I would be hard pressed to be up in arms about it.davec1 wrote:ok. i tried to be reasonable. But now you're just being a fucking asshole. And a stupid one, at that, too! do you really think anyone in rural parts cared particularly for one ideology or another? they wanted to live in peace, you dickhead. Yes, they were catholics. like all of spain long before franco. So what, if some church officials sided with faschist, your average joe in a village and his priest most of all just wanted to live. Don't make em look bad for feeling sorry or protecting individuals when kill squads (of the nowadays romanticised communists) searched their village.So, they were on the other side eh? The catholic church sided with Franco.... no wonder you are sympathetic towards fascism? Sorry man, you get no slack there. Franco was an asshole, if your relatives were on his side, or at least were less afraid of him because they were catholic etc. well I'm not at all surprised you think of fascism as not any worse than the other isms out there. Rolling Eyes
You ignorant, word-twisting moron, I never said franco wasn't an asshole. I'm saying they were all assholes, so yes, if you want it like that, faschism isn't worse than lots of other isms to me. that doesn't make it good. Anyone not caught up in some ideology can spot the flaw in your logic.
In my book, ideologies all suck, call me a cynic, if you like. But don't have the audacity to call me a fascist!
Go fuck yourself, I'm done with the rational part of this, since clearly you have no feeling for what real people and real life are like.
(I'm done with the irrational part of this, too, just needed to get this off my chest).
Let's see, Hitler was a catholic, Italy, and Spain were both catholic nations. Basically fascism and catholicism until after WWII were inseparable. Germans for the most part have members of their family that were involved in nazi Germany, but for the most part they don't try to downplay the consequences of that. The basic fact is you can sympathize, but if you try to rationalize fascism by trying to paint it out as no worse than other isms I have a distinct feeling that there are a few ethnic groups that were ritually exterminated by Franco's good pal Adolf who might more than slightly disagree with your pathetic attempts at making him seem just slightly bad, and anarchists as just as mean!
Your family sided with the catholic church who squarely sided with nazi Germany, and Franco. They were squarely on one side of the fence, don't paint them out to be "just wanting to live". They decided during war time what side to be on, and yes war sucks but in my opinion, the military taking over from a democratically elected leader by force with the backing of the catholic church is a dammed good reason to go to war.
Before you go there, I'm not anti-catholic, my moms side of the family is squarely catholic, and all good people for the most part. Had they decided during war time to be "neutral" while the catholic church blessed the tanks of dictators, I would be upset that they made such bad choices, but not sympathetic to their plight if they paid the consequences of that choice. Call me names all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you're sympathetic towards fascism because your family was.
There most definitely are differences between political systems, and isms. Maybe I'm not the nihilist you are about this, but hey, look around the planet, people are doing better and worse based on the politics of the country they live in.
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Machinesworking
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Seattle
dude, whatever rocks your boat. Your strings of association are simplistic and disregard the ways of real life. your black and white views may work for you, to me it's all shades of (often very dark) grey.
It's immensely offensive what you think to know about my family (it wouldn't be if I were a friend or defender of faschism), you should really stop and think about the fact that the world is made up of real people rather than textbook simplifications and ideological bullshit-words before you pass judgement.
while the nazis where faschists, it wasn't the faschist part of their ideology that made them try to wipe out jews, handicapped people, roma etc. at least try to be precise.
I'm curious, in your opinion, what is particularly demonic about faschism, compared to for example stalin's communism, the khmer rouge, israeli settlers or rwanda madness?
It's immensely offensive what you think to know about my family (it wouldn't be if I were a friend or defender of faschism), you should really stop and think about the fact that the world is made up of real people rather than textbook simplifications and ideological bullshit-words before you pass judgement.
while the nazis where faschists, it wasn't the faschist part of their ideology that made them try to wipe out jews, handicapped people, roma etc. at least try to be precise.
I'm curious, in your opinion, what is particularly demonic about faschism, compared to for example stalin's communism, the khmer rouge, israeli settlers or rwanda madness?
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Machinesworking
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Seattle
OK I have no idea how you can claim my ideas are simplistic and not know the basis of different political ideologies?davec1 wrote:I'm curious, in your opinion, what is particularly demonic about faschism, compared to for example stalin's communism, the khmer rouge, israeli settlers or rwanda madness?
Fascism almost universally assumes that a hierarchal structure of people with little or no movement between classes is natural and the most logical way to run society. People of lower classes are to do their job, and accept their wages etc. with no whining, because (and this is true of all the examples I can think of) they do not have what it takes to be of the upper classes.
If you cannot see how this most naturally lends itself to racial or ethnic insanity, or at the least a sense of genetic superiority, then I don't know what to say?
While all political systems can be abused, no other recent system has so clearly outlined a political motivation for eugenics.
Take communism, well yeah, any system can be abused, and Stalin did a great job of screwing up communism, (as well as screwing up the socialist and anarchist anti Franco movements in Spain), and Pol Pot was a hillbilly with a hatred of technology, but the ideology they espoused had no racial or ethnic bias. There's no doubt in my mind one bit that the nazis would have eliminated every single jew on the planet, enslaved all lessor races, and continued to eliminate undesirables if they had won.
Fascisim especially successful fascism, and remember fraco had to be a little worried, all his buddies lost, is about total subjugation of the classes, and that means with violence if necessary.
At some point Stalin stopped, and his successors slowed down to almost nothing the bloodbath, Hitler simply wouldn't have, and if he had won I have no doubt that the purges after Franco won would have gone on for quite some time.
the ideology itself states that some men are better, stronger, and deserve more than others. It's a bastard son of rampant capitalism, the worst case scenario, like a constant military government is the worst case for communism.
Also, your relatives were sympathetic towards Franco to a degree, and you lean naturally towards hating all systems, not big mystery. Why debate it? You've stated it, but the need to downplay the societal and cultural ramifications of fascism, or equate it with other isms is all you, you decide to not look squarely at the ugliness of a system that states very distinctly the all men are NOT created equal, and write it off as no worse than any other system that failed and created war.