The Tibet Card

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Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:26 am

3dot... wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Get over yourself! I have plenty of jewish friends her in the states that think Israel needs to get it's act together in terms of foreign policy. Quit trying to play the 'race card', it's old.
it's not that old...


how old are you?
Yes it is, you've played the race card before when people said they didn't like Israeli policies. I'm 41, and you're obviously a kid. What maybe 21 tops? I already stated that the US foreign policy is shit IMO. You are taking anti Israel foreign policy opinions as being anti jewish, and that's simply not very intelligent. There's an old saying here in the states "I love my country, but I hate my government." You should think about what that implies, and apply it. Seriously outside of a few sore loser middle eastern counties, most people world wide are well over anti semitism. It's just not that common any more.
Sure, you can find it. I could find people in New York and Texas that hate Californians. I could find Ulster scotts in northern Ireland that would hate me for being of irish catholic descent, but what does that do?

You bulldoze houses of palestinian families and what do you expect? them to say "wow? it's really great how much say we have in Israeli politics!"??? Would you expect their neighbors to admire your government?

3dot...
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Post by 3dot... » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:33 am

Tone Deft wrote:dot dot dot dot dot dot -

basically it goes like this
don't teach me history and do not patronize me,,,please

I've lived this conflict all of my life...

and anyways...

we've been over this already...
it all depends how far back you want to go...
you go back to the ottomans...
I go back to the Romans...
in any case...
from day 1 of the "legally" declared state of Israel it has been attacked...
I don't know how any of "your" righterous states would have acted but I'm gonna take a guess... prbly "illegaly"...
beleive me we DO NOT want that land !
this is all strategy...
not common peoples... GOVERNMENTS....
so stop spreading hate and start spreading peace !
and eventually we MAY be able to stop the cycle of hate world wide...
but mentioning this guy is a Jew that did something bad....
(although their not even saying that ,just making you think it )
is just wrong...
its like saying he did that stuff because he was jewish...
which is RACIST...
and inseting Israel to the conflict between China and Tibet
is just plain stupid manipulation of public opinion...
don't believe the hype !
I don't know who this Dr. Bla Bla is ...
or why it STATES that she is ex Iranian(?)
but she is full of crap.
end . . .

I'm OUT.
do not talk to me about politics ever again .
the world is NOT black and white.
don't be fools

peace.
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dcease
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Post by dcease » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:37 am


Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:47 am

3dot... wrote:don't teach me history and do not patronize me,,,please
check yourself. MW is the one getting personal with you, not me. don't push me I won't push back.

it all depends how far back you want to go...
you go back to the ottomans...
I go back to the Romans...
ergo you're playing the racist aspect of it. there are people living in Israel whose ancestry doesn't go back to the bible.

racism - two way street.
righterous
:lol: wtf is that? you are 12, aren't you.

dropped.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:54 am

what does Israel/Palestine have to do with Tibet/China.
Nothing on a political or even historical level. No more so than Israel has any connection to Sudan/Darfur or any other conflict in the world.
However, on the level of using the double standard of human rights abuses as an excuse to demonize a country, then all any of us are really asking is why is it China gets such an emotive bollocking over Tibet in this forum while at the same time those same people pass by the same topic as regards Israel and Palestine.

I'm astonished at the response bOunce has had in these threads.
I feel he was making a valid point in asking for more than just a media fed opinion based on some peoples emotive responses to a problem that is far from unique in the world and has been made to seem that it is just about some Human rights violations and the repression of a religion and it's surrounding culture. I think he might have been looking for more discussion and perhaps an opportunity to learn, in stead he is vilified and then painted as being anti semitic,,
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glu
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Post by glu » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:55 am

Homebelly wrote:
I'm astonished at the response bOunce has had in these threads.
I feel he was making a valid point in asking for more than just a media fed opinion based on some peoples emotive responses to a problem that is far from unique in the world and has been made to seem that it is just about some Human rights violations and the repression of a religion and it's surrounding culture. I think he might have been looking for more discussion and perhaps an opportunity to learn, in stead he is vilified and then painted as being anti semitic,,
+1

where you at b0unce?
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Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:06 am

Tone Deft wrote:
3dot... wrote:don't teach me history and do not patronize me,,,please
check yourself. MW is the one getting personal with you, not me. don't push me I won't push back.
Nah, if this is me getting personal, just wait until I'm tired of trying to reason with people. You maybe I get jibby jabby with, but only because I know you can handle yourself.

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:43 am

Taken from the # 1 gangsta rap hit by BG

"Aint No Bitch" feat Webbie and VL Mike

I ain't no bitch(I ain't no bitch)
I can't let no nigga punk me
I'm a gangsta, I'm a donkey I'm whatever you wanna call me
Ableton | Elektron

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chrysalis33rpm
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Post by chrysalis33rpm » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:45 pm

Homebelly wrote:what does Israel/Palestine have to do with Tibet/China.
Nothing on a political or even historical level. No more so than Israel has any connection to Sudan/Darfur or any other conflict in the world.
However, on the level of using the double standard of human rights abuses as an excuse to demonize a country, then all any of us are really asking is why is it China gets such an emotive bollocking over Tibet in this forum while at the same time those same people pass by the same topic as regards Israel and Palestine.
Simple, dig this : China abducts and tortures Tibetans, for generations, for practicing their religion, while encouraging settlement policies which will lead to the extinguishing of their language and culture. The Tibetans in return do very little, while their leader appeals to them for nonviolence. (Don't tell me a few burned shops is anything on the level of the violence their culture is under- and yes, I know a few Chinese died in those fires, and no, that's not OK with me!) Tibet is not demanding independence- Tibet is asking only for cultural survival.

The Israelis and the Palestinians, they are tit for tat, tanks for suicide bombers. I don't know what to say, but both sides are drenched in blood.

I am on the side of nonviolence, not Israel or Tibet.

(And, for the record, the 2 situations have nothing to do with one another...)

replicant6
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Wow

Post by replicant6 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:26 pm

So I really don't want to jump too deep into this argument because, honestly, the original post seems deliberately inflammatory and convoluted. Also, my problem with the original post is that it points fingers at everybody, which only escalates such problems.

I second what chrysalis just said.


I find it very disheartening that everybody seems so quick and eager to take situations like the current one in Tibet and make it into some diversionary political argument. Is it that hard to look at the situation in Tibet (or many other places in the world) and feel real compassion for those people's suffering?

I had the privilege of living with some Tibetan lamas here in Canada at different times in my life. They are among the warmest, kindest, and most good natured people I have known. The world would be a much poorer place if their culture is allowed to perish under the foot of it's larger neighbor.


take care all


R6

dcease
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Re: Wow

Post by dcease » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:06 pm

replicant6 wrote:Also, my problem with the original post is that it points fingers at everybody, which only escalates such problems.
everybody deserves a finger pointing...
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b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:40 am

Homebelly wrote:Mr dot,,,
Can you point to a specific instance of where bOunce has shown him self to be anti jew?
+1
the term 'anti-semite' shouldn't be thrown around, if a person had any sense they would learn what the word really means. To be critical of the deplorable actions of a state has little or nothing to do with judaism. And zionism isn't judaism. All too often journalists are wrongly accused of being anti-semitic for simply observing and reporting what is going on, or any individual who speaks critically of israel. The term is slowly becoming impotent or empty, toothless even, because of this abuse & misuse. Like the boy who cried wolf.

I thought my links were interesting food for thought on current events. An alternative to the most popular outlets, or something to compound with the rest of your sources.

The reaction speaks for itself.
3braincells... wrote: *fevered bullshit*
What's your problem little man ?
If you can't handle the sight of these kind of articles on the board without frothing at the mouth, becoming totally irrational and making baseless accusations of anti-semitism & incitement of hatred you should probably take a break and practise some form of yoga and the like. Shmeckle.
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rasputin
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Remarks on Zionism vs. "anti-Semitism"

Post by rasputin » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:39 pm

I'm only going to comment on a part of your posting:
b0unce wrote: the term 'anti-semite' shouldn't be thrown around, if a person had any sense they would learn what the word really means. To be critical of the deplorable actions of a state has little or nothing to do with judaism. And zionism isn't judaism. All too often journalists are wrongly accused of being anti-semitic for simply observing and reporting what is going on, or any individual who speaks critically of israel. The term is slowly becoming impotent or empty, toothless even, because of this abuse & misuse. Like the boy who cried wolf.
I realize "anti-Semitism" is a poor synonym for "hatred of Jews" -- since Arabs are ethnologically Semitic peoples as well.

The problem is this: every country has plenty to be criticized about. Israel is no better or worse in general than any one of a hundred countries. That of course does not excuse abuses or imperialism.

I've been around a long time and I've seen all sorts of hate. Hate that absolutely seethes and boils out of people. Hate of liberals and conservatives for one another, hate of women by men and vice versa, hate of blacks by white (and vice versa), all sorts of religious hate, etc. Even hate that is so strong that the hater can justify murder. In fact, the loathing of Jews was so strong in Nazi Germany that they believed they were doing the world a favor by attempting to wipe them all off the planet.

But even as virulent as that hatred was, the only hate I've ever seen that is sufficient for a person to commit suicide by strapping explosives to their body is the hate of Arabs for Jews. Yes, the geopolitical issues in that area are real and serious, but a large part of the problem, if not most of it, is this systemic hate, and no political solution exists for that.

I'll be glad for someone to explain how I'm wrong to me.

(Incidentally, I am not a Jew; was brought up in a middle-class Roman Catholic household, in case that illuminates my position at all.)

From the Koran, 2:62: Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

That works for me.

Homebelly
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Re: Remarks on Zionism vs. "anti-Semitism"

Post by Homebelly » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:15 pm

rasputin wrote:I
But even as virulent as that hatred was, the only hate I've ever seen that is sufficient for a person to commit suicide by strapping explosives to their body is the hate of Arabs for Jews. Yes, the geopolitical issues in that area are real and serious, but a large part of the problem, if not most of it, is this systemic hate, and no political solution exists for that.
I wish we could all get past this idea, not just on the board here, but in the world as a whole. It isn't religion or ethnicity that drives people to put into effect these actions. More often than not it is desperation and alienation. I would say this is more true for the people of Palestine than any where else right now, I think it is also true to say that "Suicide bombing" isn't even a tactic exclusive to Arabs, or specifically Palestinians.
There is also the idea that Arabic/Islamic people "Hate" Jews,, this isn't any where near the truth. They might possibly not be to rosy about Israel or the idea of Zionism, they might even be more than a little pissy about the US and Britons constant promises and then broken promises as regards the Arabs in Gaza/The West bank and Palestine as a whole. But to say they hate jews is right of the mark.
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b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:32 am

rasputin wrote: I realize "anti-Semitism" is a poor synonym for "hatred of Jews" -- since Arabs are ethnologically Semitic peoples as well.

The problem is this: every country has plenty to be criticized about. Israel is no better or worse in general than any one of a hundred countries. That of course does not excuse abuses or imperialism.

My beef with the term 'anti-semitism' is not just because it's a poor synonym for "hatred of jews" .
even when assuming 'anti-semitism' only means "hatred of jews" the term is constantly mis-applied. Being critical of the state of Israel or zionism, is not the same as being critical of Judaism. Hating the actions of Israel, is not the same as hating jews. That's just a blatant red-herring. I've encountered plenty of intellectual jews who are abhorred by zionism. What about all the jews who were living in Israel peacefully until zionism came on the scene, along with the illegal settlers and all the trouble that comes with them ? Huh ? You think those jews love zionism ? you think they see it as being ONE with judaism ? .... don't fall for that shit.

There are quite a few countries with poor track records, sure. But what the hell are you talking about when you say Israel is no better or worse ? You've got to be shitting me ?

Not to mention they are on the U.S. payroll - to the tune millions of dollars a day, and are protected in the UN Security Council by the USA .... I mean, I'm shocked you believe they're just going through the same routine as hundreds of other countries.

While shit's going down in other countries...
beyond being concerned with palestine on a purely humanitarian basis, I'm concerned particularly with Israel because :
{a} the oppression is funded by american tax dollars
{b} america uses my national airports as a miltary stop-over, through economic blackmail (which is not only against our will to begin with, but also serves to make us a legitimate target)
{c} israeli goods are imported into my country while palestinian goods are physically blocked and left to rot

if you question my bias over some humanitarian issues, or even your fellow americans, you should consider those three simple facts. Shit goes down everywhere, sure, but how much of it is being done on your tax dollar or with your tacit-complicity, consent and help ?

my country contributed to ending apartheid in south africa by boycotting south african goods, all the trade unions and workers unions got involved and refused to work anywhere where such goods were sold or bought. We need to boycott israel in the same way.
rasputin wrote: I've been around a long time and I've seen all sorts of hate. Hate that absolutely seethes and boils out of people. Hate of liberals and conservatives for one another, hate of women by men and vice versa, hate of blacks by white (and vice versa), all sorts of religious hate, etc. Even hate that is so strong that the hater can justify murder. In fact, the loathing of Jews was so strong in Nazi Germany that they believed they were doing the world a favor by attempting to wipe them all off the planet.

But even as virulent as that hatred was, the only hate I've ever seen that is sufficient for a person to commit suicide by strapping explosives to their body is the hate of Arabs for Jews. Yes, the geopolitical issues in that area are real and serious, but a large part of the problem, if not most of it, is this systemic hate, and no political solution exists for that.
oh brother :roll:
the suicide bombings are an act of a desperate people, their hatred has been unquestionably provoked over the years. The fact you think they're doing it purely out of a natural 'hatred of jews' is a sign of your myopic view on the whole situation. You're a victim of the religious smokescreen, at best. Even tho they are filled with hate and desperation, you've got to ask yourself why.

do you really insist it's just because they're jews ? why do they hate jews then ?

bah, couldn't be fucked spoon feeding this one. You've shown your political colours before and you're a fucking well-off retard living in a bubble. nuff said.
spreader of butter

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