Plane or Missile?

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:03 pm

i think one of the main points is that american history is too young. they didn't have enough time to make mistakes and to learn the lessons of their mistakes. and they had too much power too soon.
they need time to grow up. of course i don't mean it as the americans have to grow up individualy, but as a nation.
for the moment they behave a bit like a spoiled child.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:16 pm

You'd think they would've learn their lessons by now though. How many more decades before they realise war creates war, not peace.

claudek · Post by **claudek** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:42 pm

Amberience wrote:You'd think they would've learn their lessons by now though. How many more decades before they realise war creates war, not peace.

I totally agree!
Look at a countries like France, Italy , Sapin etc....they never starts War and were only attacked once in the more Modern age. (I'm not talking biblical times or way way back.. ..) Mayeb I'm wrong , but agree War does not bring peace..Soemtimes it is necessry for defence, but Iraq was no defence.
It is a peaceful country..at least more than most.
America is always at War for interests that are linked to $ .

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:03 pm

claudek wrote:
Amberience wrote:You'd think they would've learn their lessons by now though. How many more decades before they realise war creates war, not peace.
I totally agree!
Look at a country like France..it never starts War and was only attacked once in the more Modern age. (not talking biblical times or way way back.. ..)
It is a peaceful country..at least more than most.
America is always at War for interests that are linked to $ .

well, i'm not that positive about france... look at indochine and algeria, that was less than 50 years ago...
i guess it was because of the colonies becoming independant, and france didn't really start these wars, but that's just to show that it takes a real long time for a country to learn the lessons of its past.

and i guess that america won't learn much before they get a serious blowback. but how could it be more serious than 9/11?... that's pretty scary.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:12 pm

peeddrroo wrote:but how could it be more serious than 9/11?... that's pretty scary.

We shall probably find out.

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:31 pm

there are always going to be people who hate, who are greedy, who fear, or who are just assholes.... in every country.

it's when these people get into positions of power, or for that matter powerlessness when things start to go pear shaped.

surely this is all part of humanity, in it's most primal, base instinct.

the message from all of this?

make music...express yourself... find outlets for your frustrations... your love... your pain.

and don't forget to listen to other people's music too... to find empathy in the human condition.

well.... blah blahh....

tis late in Melbourne.

-am

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:01 pm

War does not bring piece. But it sure is profitable to the ones who started it. some examples:

Belgium colonizes Congo. Antwerp is the diamond capitol of the world.
America seems to attack country's wich have oil, refuses to let them build a pipeline, have heroin/opium or just make them look bad.
I cant even sum up what england colonised.

You can look back at history and find hundreds of more examples. But paranoid people like me tend to believe history is just another example of facts that been covered up and such.

The Germans on the other hand started a war and got their asses kicked. America got their ass kicked in vietnam.
Planning wars these day goes through the marketing department.
First you need a distraction (clinton-lewinsky case) then you need a solid argument to justify your cause (9/11) you remove obstacles (saddam, UN) and then you go to work on making profits.
That iraqi war is far from over, the plan was a cock-up (abu-ghraib, hostage's, getting the world to see how evil you are)

They wonna remove weapons of mass-destruction, yet they have the biggest collection of all.
This all will change our planet like it is doing now.
But from my point of view, if you look at what just happened in Russia. You can see they want to pump the world full of fear. Fear of what? Punishment for innocent people because of what their goverment does/decides?

War is $$$$
Religion is an excuse for war/control

Music on the other hand connects people, gives them messages and feelings. It's what i do to get away from the real stuff going on. But you got to keep an eye on whats going on. Because either the world will get fucked up by those in power or there will be a Revolution. Not much choice's left in the real world. Peace is a dream. one that gets shattered every day. I got music to dream and nobody can take that from me.

Damn politics, it's like watching a muppet show where you can see who's controlling the strings.

D K · Post by **D K** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:07 pm

it really makes me sad that the world view of my current home is so terrible. everyone i know...even my (sadly) republican father who worked to better our gov't for 40+years hate(d) bush and did not support him...it is a dictatorship, masked by bought media to look like democracy. if he manages to retain power after this next faux-election, there will most likely be very violent protest....
that aside, i think it is folly to point the finger at america and say the country needs to grow up....after all, it's made up of people who in large are looking to escape from much worse situations in their native lands.
pointing fingers is something bush does, and is symptomatic of the real problem. for now, i'll keep fighting from the inside out.
peace
dk

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:14 pm

America is a despotism, not a democracy. Its all bullshit, always has been.

D K · Post by **D K** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:21 pm

just like every other government

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:27 pm

Correct.

forge · Post by **forge** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:59 pm

claudek wrote:
Amberience wrote:You'd think they would've learn their lessons by now though. How many more decades before they realise war creates war, not peace.
I totally agree!
Look at a countries like France, Italy , Sapin etc....they never starts War and were only attacked once in the more Modern age. (I'm not talking biblical times or way way back.. ..) .

Napolean wasn't that long ago....

The great thing is, if you put yourself outside nationalism and see these things from an entirely objective point of view, as was said above, there are a few basic human primal urges going on here. It's not a case of not realising, but of not caring.

Why would any animal in a position of advantage care about the underdog....really?

No - I think compassion is a luxury reserved for those of us not in a position of power or priviledge. It's amazing how quickly and easily people become corrupted by power aand wealth - and as time goes on there seems to be less and less people staunch and resilient enough to resist abusing it. I'm sure Tony Blair started out genuinely intending to do good. Now he'll go down in history as the man who could have stopped Iraq but didn't. I think once he wouldn't have not been able to sleep about it, but now I'm sure he's as beastly careless as any of them.

The most basic human desire is to want a comfortable and happy life - for any living thing - but when we start to get too much we get addicted and want even more. I think it might even be some kind of natural dopamine type thing where the natural mechanism is to feel good at times of abundance (of food) and in our society it gets translated into material possessions.

So like AM said - it's things like music that go beyond all this because it's existence is incredible, but entirely abstract - so it is completely seperate to that material reality.

you can't stick it in a jar and look at it - you have to listen to it and so, unlike eyesight which is instant, you have to sit there for a set amount of time to perceive it, and it's made up of different vibrations of moving air mixed together and translated by the ear drum to create an emotional effect - so it's operating in a completely different dimension. Most other aspects of the human experience don't work in this way, so it's a kind of sanctuary or time out.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:20 pm

This conspiracy theory stuff has been around for awhile now... i was really into it right after 9/11, but its a line of thought that goes deeper and deeper, and nowhere at the same time. What can you do with ideas like these?
This all happened before with the Oklahoma City bombing (a half hour north of me)...
There are a lot of equally scary things that haven't happened yet... like the fact that the US government is setup perfectly right now for a takeover... All it takes is for our bullshit "Terror Meter" to go red and blammo! suspension of civilian government! The president declares a state of emergency and FEMA takes control of all transportation, financial, and medical services, and a replacement government takes over. This is already in place... and they're already talking about possible "terrorist" attacks "disrupting" the November election!
Then again 2012 is right around the corner...
Links to fuel paranoid fantasies...
http://www.copvcia.com
http://www.hereinreality.com
http://guerrillanews.com

Links to raise your bloodpressure and incite anger...
http://www.moorewatch.com
http://www.defendamerica.mil

My apologies to anyone on the right reading this thread...don't worry i'm a registered Republican!!;)

claudek · Post by **claudek** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:31 pm

I hate to say it but the bible says kinda something like this..
Greed will ruin / end it all.
If the Bush admin wins another term the planet will be in serious danger..
The Bush admin has gotten away with so much "murder" and no punn intended..what will they do next??..What will they launch next?
Bush is a killer, a war president and a businesman. Don't fall for his BS Born again Christian nonsense..This is not what God wants us sending troops and training them like animals to kill other beings..Starting wars without proper cause . God wants love and peace. This planetary system is way to vast and beautiful to be in danger from this evil empire.. I'm not saying the US does not need a powerful man in this day and age, but not one who is at war all the time. I just wonder what they have on the drawing board now for the next war? Iraq war was way planned before 9/11.
This planet needs someone bright , not a ignorant dishonest monkey.
Save the planet ..stop the Bush admin!..

You think your safe but you are really around the corner from disaster.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:30 pm

hoffman2k wrote: Planning wars these day goes through the marketing department.
First you need a distraction

I'd just like to reccomend to anyone who hasn't seen it the brilliant brilliant movie "Wag the Dog".

Its satire, but made before 9/11. There's no way in HELL it could/would have gotten made after.

(team it with "Three Kings" and make a night of it)

cheers
paddy