Hi Timur,
Do not worry, I take nothing personal here.
I think there is a confusion that needs to be cleared: nobody, not even me in my previous message, asked you to test anything, or do anything in particular. All I asked you to, is to watch the conclusions you draw. As you're trying very hard to help, some of your findings are very valuable, but sometimes the conclusions you make are damaging the value of your experiments, because too broad.
While it is very true that what you experience is real, and that it may be useful for another user to know what you experience, it helps no one to say "this is an ultimate truth" when ultimately, it is only your truth, depending on your environment. In short, I was only asking you not to say "hey, that's a bug in Live", when neither you nor us know about that. All we all know is: "for some users who use Nvidia hardware and Vista, Aero gives better results."
If large experiments need to be done, we're happy to do them, in the time we can afford to do them, and we, ultimately, decide about that. We even decide if it should be done at all or not. And we never, ever, would rely on, or ask users to do so.
Timur wrote:Amaury wrote:Timur wrote:Nope, it's a bug, it doesn't happen in XP and it doesn't happen with other software in Vista.
Which other software?
All other software (that I have tested to date).
How many real time music application have you tested, out of "all the software"? (As it seems that the symptoms are audio drop-outs).
Before calling something a bug, when it has to do with external equipment such as hardware/Operating system, we need to make sure it happens always, for everybody, regardless of any variable.
Then go and tell your team to do that, it's
their job not mine. Or if they want us to help them then tell them they ought to contact us about the problem at least. This has been reported by me and other users as early as January, let me check my callendar, ah yes, it's April now, and no single response from Ableton!
Exactly, it's our job. You do not need to do any more research or try to prove any point about this problem. You've let the support know, and that's the best you can do. And, you can't expect anything more from that: Again, before saying if Live, or Nvidia, or the NASA is at fault, we need investigation. Before even knowing if it's a constant: Live + Nvidia + Vista in classic mode = bad, there is a need for investigation. Please, understand that we have a lot of things to deal with, that are sometimes very complex, understand that we prioritize things, and treat them, ultimately, as we choose to. We're not blaming anyone, any other company, we're not questioning any of your findings without proof. We're just managing things and time the way we think is right, and that, again, is our own business.
It's way easier to call "bug" a set of actions performed into the software, that shows a wrong behaviour or a crash.
Not saying that your observation is not valid, but, it seems it's not the case for everybody, on every Vista machine. So it may not be be "as simple" as a Live bug. What you experience is for sure something wrong. But so for, you, nor us, know what it is exactly.
Regards,
Amaury
I have already send as much information to your support as I was able to extrapolate myself (downto the point that sending Live to the background in Basic mode and then changing screen-resolution lover CPU load to normal until Live comes to the foreground again). What more do you expect your customers to do, disassemble Live and look up the buggy code themselves?
Amaury, I know your stance on this, but if you check the forum you will notice that several other users have the very same problem and I have helped these people to make Live work under Vista by telling them to change from Basic desktop to Aero. Your support
knows about that, because I already mailed my observation to your support several weeks ago, including that upto that point only NVidia users have reported about this. Last time I heard from your support concerning this issue was on Feb. 13th stating that "this will be forwarded to the corresponding/responsible department". None was heard henceforth from Ableton, never did Ableton support answer any user's call on this via the forum aka
No response from Ableton at all! You are leaving your customers alone with this and only after you forced your customers to commit their own tests and do their own conclusions you show up to discredit them.
If several different users experience this very same behavior with Live on Vista, both 32 and 64, both with current Nvidia drivers and Vista's stock drivers, on a
fresh installation, and Ableton refuses to comment on it or offer solutions then until Ableton cares to handle this the only reasonable answer will remain:
It is a bug in Live!
This
may be a problem of the Nvidia driver and I once asked on the forum if someone with an ATI or Matrox card could possibly test this, but I got no answers. Anyway I did not experience this kind of behavior from any other piece of software that I've tried with Vista yet (although I do admit that my overall Vista experience is still limited, one reason being that I cannot use Live properly and thus stay to XP mostly), only Live does it, so if Ableton wants to blame someone else then Ableton ought to stop ignoring that problem in the first place. Am I disappointed about your lack of support? Yes. Am I beginning to get upset about Ableton staff discrediting my expertise while they don't even offer their own? Yes!
I can prove my points via videos, screenshots, readings of sophisticated protocol tools and audio-files. Ableton did not come up with a single working solution for any of my reported problems yet. And even
if I am experiencing a very specific problem that is only affecting me then still your support failed to handle it! We are all human and I am sure that both your support and coding teams are overworked, I mean them no harm. But that is no excuse for making my efforts and reports look bad just to keep your own face. This is getting ridiculous, you really gotta be kidding me Ableton...
PS: Sorry Amaury, this is not meant to be a personal attack, but you have to blame yourself for intervening in a discussion with arguments that are partly invalid because you don't know all the facts yourself. Or blame your Ableton team-members for seemingly having put that problem into their trashcan instead of communicating it internally.
We are not trying to ridicule or even discuss your findings here, neither deny the value of your findings. Do not worry about that. If someone told you "this will be forwarded to the corresponding/responsible department", it means it is taken in account. You can't seriously expect to be more involved in the process.
There is a problem with some Vista systems, that may be related to Nvidia hardware; it is nice to know, and of course I and "my team" (no pun intended
) thank you for that much. But, first, we may know it and you may not know that, and second, that does not mean that there is a "bug in Live". To outline this, testing is more than a few evidences, if you want to draw strong conclusions. You’d be surprised if you knew the facts we sometimes find out, after suspicions that are nowhere near the reality of the problem. That’s why we all should be very careful being too affirmative when a lot of parameters are involved.
And be sure our support folks are doing their best to answer and help every user that gets to them. They are also known to, at least, not be the worst around there. If you get no answer, it may be because there is nothing new to communicate, and, ultimately, others need answers too. You have been answered, and the information you provided has been acknowledged to be taken in account. They may use the information you gave them for supporting other users, and I’m certain they are thankful for that. But understand that’s not unique, and they won't write a personal thank you mail every time it happens: there are and have been many helpful people around here, we thank them when we can or think of, and generally, they don’t
expect anything.
There are lots of people on this board who have given support to others, repeated the same sentence a lot etc.. All for free and for fun. And that's the key word: fun. If there's no fun, just don't do it. As written under the title of this forum section, we do not (for the moment) monitor and answer everything in this forum, at least not daily, and contacting support is a good idea if people have a problem. We do not expect anyone to do support for us. We can’t do more than our capacity allows. If anyone helps, very nice, but there’s no obligation on any part. That needs to be very clear. It’s a community. It is generally a place where people help one another, just for the sake of it.
Hope you don't mind me addressing you directly, either. To other people, I apologize for this thread highjacking, as we started a private conversation about this with Timur, but somehow, it’s been continuing here. I hope it is understood that we do respect and appreciate Timur’s efforts and help - this is not a negative appreciation of his work.
Kind regards,
Amaury